Am I a hypocrite?

mamerc

Member
Always arguing with others, the eBike is more a "helper" than a Free Ride mode of transportation. On days my wife and I ride, assist will be used when needed, we enjoy the option that we can free pedal on our rides. I find no issues riding 70 miles and only using one or two bars.
We live in a very bike friendly town that has many streets, and side streets equipped with bike lanes. I ride daily from home to office 6 miles in 95% bike lane commute... So here is what happened today.....
Some guy in a 30mph+ eBike passed me in a 3 foot wide bike lane. He was traveling with ongoing traffic and keeping up with the cars next to him Sitting low with feet up on the forks I was unsure if he even had pedals! Now I know this is often the argument with non "e" mountain bikes and us...
Should 30+ be allowed on a bike lane?
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
Probably not a legal bike? 30+ on throttle alone? If I understood what I read in my state's motor vehicle laws, 30+ qualifies as a moped and has to be registered, have turn signals etc.
 

mamerc

Member
Cant help to think he's digging that hole deeper to all the eBike nay sayers and just making them dislike us all that much more,
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Sounds like he had weenie legs...too bad. It's kind of like Tru*p... most of what he says makes some sense, it's just how he says it.

Going 30 and keeping up with traffic on an bike can be safe and ideal. But do it wrong headed and collateral damage will emerge.
 

grench

Well-Known Member
Always arguing with others, the eBike is more a "helper" than a Free Ride mode of transportation. On days my wife and I ride, assist will be used when needed, we enjoy the option that we can free pedal on our rides. I find no issues riding 70 miles and only using one or two bars.
We live in a very bike friendly town that has many streets, and side streets equipped with bike lanes. I ride daily from home to office 6 miles in 95% bike lane commute... So here is what happened today.....
Some guy in a 30mph+ eBike passed me in a 3 foot wide bike lane. He was traveling with ongoing traffic and keeping up with the cars next to him Sitting low with feet up on the forks I was unsure if he even had pedals! Now I know this is often the argument with non "e" mountain bikes and us...
Should 30+ be allowed on a bike lane?
My vote...yes hypocrite...
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
JMO......throttles should not be allowed on an e/"bike". Putting a throttle on a "bike" disqualifies it's classification as a bike.

Court J.
Court J,
I think we know and respect each other enough for me to call you out for e-snobbery. What you just said has been repeated a thousand times more by the mainstream population that says: [Putting a (Motor) on a "bike" disqualifies it's classification as a bike.] You know that ebikers hate when people make such statements, and now I am hearing the same self-protective, snobbery within the ebike community.

I just posted this on another thread:
WE, the ebike community, need to support all manufacturer classes, DIY, progressive designs, and application types. When we get protective and start eliminating "throttles" or a meager 0.5-1.5hp types, we hurt ourselves. Live together, die together.

Putting a motor on a bike is certainly a "line" separating a classes of "bikes". ALL ebikes ARE motorbikes, and ALL ebikes are MOPEDS. The next line of differentiation is not throttles, but should be the line between a valid moped and a real motorcycle. Note that throttle only, 28mph ebikes will weight, handle, accelerate, brake, etc just like a 28mph PAS, class 3 speed pedelec. There is no safety advantage to PAS. In fact , throttle is probably safer for rider awareness. If you want to throw throttles under the moped bus, then Class 3 pedelecs belong there too, and we are now set back 15 years to 20 mph limits. The upper line for ebikes is at the top of the moped class, with legit pedals and gearing. These are bikes-ebikes, not pedal-less motorcycles.

Hey , that statement get a 4 star on the hypocrite scale.... feel free to disagree.
 

flymeaway

Well-Known Member
feel free to disagree
As I stated, it's just my opinion, and people are free to disagree, as you did. "e-snobbery", I think that's a little harsh......

"Hey , that statement get a 4 star on the hypocrite scale.... feel free to disagree"

Not really. As I've stated none of my DIY's have a throttle since I don't find the throttle useful. I practice what I believe.

Court J.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
Some guy in a 30mph+ eBike passed me in a 3 foot wide bike lane. He was traveling with ongoing traffic and keeping up with the cars next to him Sitting low with feet up on the forks I was unsure if he even had pedals! Now I know this is often the argument with non "e" mountain bikes and us...
Should 30+ be allowed on a bike lane?
In California you can go 28 mph in a bike lane along a road, but not a dedicated and separate bike path. California is the 'model' law the industry wants everywhere. On a path along a road, do they even have a 'bike' speed limit? Otherwise the standard speed limit would apply. To go above 20 mph under the California scheme you have to be using pedal assist, so you have to be pedaling.

If you are going under 20 mph, the original design limit for ebikes going back to the 90's, it has always been legal to have a throttle, even if that is all you use. They seemed to outlaw them for 28 mph ebikes, but that hasn't worked.

Personally, I don't want an ebike that goes 28 mph. I'd buy an electric motorcycle that went 40-45 if it was light, but had good brakes and a very solid suspension. But that's really the point. We all want what we want, but how should we regulate others when they want something different? I'm not afraid of the motorcycle class. If you make a motorcycle, you are a motorcycle. Everything can't be an ebike, and some ebikes are just too dangerous. When a guy says he bought a $200 Walmart bike and ebay 2000 watt motor, and he rides it at 40 mph, that scares me.
 

vincent

Well-Known Member
i have throttles on all my bikes, a couple are only throttle bikes with no pas like my prodeco
and i probably ride way slower than most on the forum
throttles have their place, especially on low end cadence sensing bikes that will blast you forward in level 1 pas
 

Berry78

Active Member
When humans are moving around each other, even at a walk, there can be friction. Think about walking in a mall. You pass the old couple pushing walkers, or you get passed by the speed-walking soccer mom. It isn't really a problem as long as there is room for passing. The general speed in a mall is 1-4mph. Trap the 4mph walker behind the 1mph, frustration quickly ensues.

Driving in traffic elicits the same range of reactions.. doesn't matter that we are talking about 60-80mph, the behavior is the same.

But, imagine someone is running at 10mph through a busy mall. Every person he passes is going to feel he should slow down.

People have a fairly narrow range of behavior that will be deemed appropriate by others.

Teachers and parents say "don't run inside", police stop drivers that are speeding or going too slowly.

Is it any wonder that bikes/ebikes are affected by the same issues? 20mph is too slow to keep up with traffic, but way too fast for pedestrian safety.

In my area there are 4 common speed limits. 25mph in town, 40mph on town highways, 55mph on country highways, 70mph on the freeway.

25mph seems like it would be the perfect speed for an ebike in town. Ride in the lane of traffic in town, away from the door zone, no issues at intersections, etc. Just make sure you are visible and you ARE a car.

Roads that are 30-55mph need designated bike lanes that are at least 3 feet wide. No parking near bike lane! 10-25mph.
A lot of roads don't need widening, just new stripes and driver education.

A galloping horse doesn't typically go over 25mph (except race horses). Fall off a galloping horse and you are gonna feel it. It can be serious, or not. Luck of the draw. Anything faster, and balance tips in favor of serious injury.

Lets keep cyclists to 20-25mph ...anything faster needs a motorcycle platform, and kept out of bike lanes. Use the extra 3mph that speed pedelecs provide as a way to maintain 25mph without cutting in and out, rather than using 28 as the baseline, then getting irritated by that cutout.
 
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Bike_On

Well-Known Member
As I stated, it's just my opinion, and people are free to disagree, as you did. "e-snobbery", I think that's a little harsh......

"Hey , that statement get a 4 star on the hypocrite scale.... feel free to disagree"

Not really. As I've stated none of my DIY's have a throttle since I don't find the throttle useful. I practice what I believe.

Court J.
"e-snobbery" is kind of being nice. It is equivalent to you being told your PAS bikes are not bikes because they have a motor. It's a different kind of bicycle. So is a throttled bike where people have the option to pedal, and most do, because the pedals are there and 350-500W will bog down if you don't, is still a bicycle.

Maybe you can explain why people should agree with you about:
"Putting a throttle on a "bike" disqualifies it's classification as a bike."

Technically, all ebikes are MOPEDS by definition of a motor + pedals. Maybe your DIY builds are not really bikes and need to be classified as mopeds with all the states?
 
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Nutella

Active Member
+30 miles could lead to a shorter life span on a bike :p
I saw a guy the other day on the street, late 60's, two big hub motors front and rear, ape hanger bars, tear off from a light outdistancing the cars and get up to 35 in a heartbeat and start passing traffic without ever turning a crank. My thoughts were that exactly, enjoy it while it lasts, because when things go bad at that speed on a bicycle, they go really bad.

Ebikes are mopeds, in most cases low powered ones, which is what enables us to get away with calling them bikes. The guys that sell them pushed for a name change so they could be ridden everywhere and are easier to sell. Speed limits should be enforced, but legal power limits could be higher IMO, like 1500w.
 

Ann M.

Well-Known Member
In Texas, a Moped is legally defined by TxDOT & DPS as a motor vehicle requiring licensing due to engine displacement or in the case of electric Mopeds, the motor watts & speed of 30mph+. Has nothing to do with having or not having pedals anymore. The original mopeds were funky, pedal to start gas burners :) that had a hard time climbing a hill.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
In Texas, a Moped is legally defined by TxDOT & DPS as a motor vehicle requiring licensing due to engine displacement or in the case of electric Mopeds, the motor watts & speed of 30mph+. Has nothing to do with having or not having pedals anymore. The original mopeds were funky, pedal to start gas burners :) that had a hard time climbing a hill.
Ann,

Nice antidote on TX. All the states have their own MVA definition of a MOPED with their specific state requirements. My definition was the dictionary type: Motor + pedals.

My point above is that the legal, market and cultural definitions of when an electric bike is/is not a bike, or is/is not an electric motorcycle, cannot be defined by one persons personal experience, no matter how consistent they follow their idea of bike-ness. Until the last 10-15 years (per EV), we had pure bicycles, and pure motorcycles. Now we have electric motor powered bicycles (MOPEDS) of many types and power. Like Nutella advocated above, ebikes can still gain human assist up to 1500W or so before one has to ask, "Why bother?".

To keep the community powerful and unified, I would advocate we "draw the motorcycle line" at the upper end of moped status, since we are all mopeds. The states will regulate as they wish. Those wanting to expel throttles and insist on PAS-only to be a "real ebike" are really being snobs, for lack of a better word. Why prevent others the option of infinite variable assist on their ebike? Why prevent others the option to rest their legs and still go green? WHy advocate legal restrictions, access, market share against your e-brethren when there is no difference in motor power, speed or range given equal effort? Why? It's the same reason bikers don't like us..."I'm working harder than you (assumingly) and you are going just as fast or faster and that must stop."

It is very shortsighted, self-interested, and hypocritical to the wonderful ebike cause if we divide and advocate that all throttle ebikes are not bicycles and thus mopeds/motorcycles. IMHO.

I hear the counter argument: It is very far sighted to restrict throttles from the ebike/bike class because of abuse with speed and safety. So basically sacrifice the a definable class for the sake good standing and safe legal status. Where is our nerve and chutzpa?

Back to Ann's post, I would be very good with the Texas definition of moped and regulation above 30 mph. That would make the existing Class 3 to be 30mph, PAS and/or throttle. That would be sweet.
 

flymeaway

Well-Known Member
Maybe you can explain why people should agree with you about:
"Putting a throttle on a "bike" disqualifies it's classification as a bike."
There is a legal definition of what constitutes an "electric bike", regardless of opinions, and the legal definition trumps all opinions. Whether you like it (or not) in my opinion, adding a throttle to an electric bike changes the basic function of the bicycle, and in my opinion moves it into a different class. I'm not sure why you believe I need to explain why people should agree with me....they're free to have their own opinion, regardless of my opinion.

Court J.
 

mamerc

Member
Rode up to the upper lake last spring in Mammoth Lakes California with my Jumper. The grade was so steep coming down I felt it to be much safer riding on the highway lane then ride the bike path. Discovered the display cuts off at 35 MPH, NOT A GOOD FEELING going down hill at that kind of speed, one miss calculation would not be pretty, not sure motor had any bearing on the speed just 30 MPH is pretty fast, (funny thing that day, I was passed by a tandem)
 

Berry78

Active Member
Our roads are populated by all manner of mobility enhancers. People on skates, bikes, horses, convertables, model t's, semi tractor trailers, tractors, 3 wheelers, etc, gas powered, electric powered, human powered, automatic transmissions, manual transmissions...

The only signs I see that apply across the board are speed limit signs.

KISS.. Let's keep it simple, sillies. If it goes over some agreed speed, it is a motorcycle. If it is under, it is a bike/moped.

I feel 30mph is too fast. People tend to push past speed limits by a small amount as a matter of course. 25mph is a common town speed limit. Use that as a basis. Assistance up to 28 makes sense for utility.

Whatcha know.. there already are rules in place to reflect this thinking. California is doing a good thing, although throttles shouldn't matter. Get rid of class 1.