BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Road One

Mass Deduction

Active Member
This e-road bike looks amazing: https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/alpenchallenge-amp-road-one-302019.html It's the first super lightweight mid-drive electric road bike with a large capacity battery that I've ever seen. In my experience super lightweight e-road bikes either have tiny batteries (only 200-250 Wh), or they're heavier than I want (41+ pounds). This BMC unit is a 504 Wh battery, but is rated at 14.81 KG (32.65 pounds). Now that's what I'm talking about! Nearly as light as the Fazua and Bafang mid-drives and their tiny batteries, but with as big a battery as something like the Haibike Race S! And it even has an elastomer section of the rear end of the frame that gives it 10mm of vibration dampening, and it will take a tire up to 700x42c. My wallet is already crying at how much I desire this bike! This will almost certainly be my next e-bike, and my first one with a Shimano motor. It has a STePS 8000 motor, which allows for user tuning of how much assistance each mode offers. I'm very stoked!

Is anyone riding one of these BMC beauties yet, or even test-ridden it somewhere?
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
I have my eye on this bike as well, but it is certainly premium priced.
It's premium priced, but justifies it. I had previously been looking at the Look E765, which is also premium priced but doesn't justify it nearly as well. The Look bike has a battery less than half the size, and a motor from a company without nearly as long a track record of support as Shimano. On top of all that, the Shimano motor has more torque as well. Then there's the intangible benefit of the 10mm of rear travel on the BMC, which I haven't ridden yet but looks good on paper at least. So this is looking to be a "Take my money!" situation with BMC. :)
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
I wasn't sure why Shimano advertised such longer anticipated range for the STePS 6100 motor than the STePS 8000 motor. I found their range calculation, and I can see why now. Shimano estimates "trekking" motors like the 6100 by assuming they're riding at the cutout the entire ride but that they're riding on flat ground with relatively still wind. That's good, in that by assuming people are using assist the entire ride most people in real world terms will get something at least relatively close to the estimated range. However, with STePS 8000 being a mountain motor they estimate it assuming significant amounts of vertical climbing on dirt (400 metres for high assist, 600 metres for medium assist, and 800 metres for low assist). That explains why they estimate 95-195 KM for STePS 6100 with the 504 Wh battery, but only 50-100 KM for STePS 8000 on the same battery. So in real world terms, STePS 8000 will probably have range very similar to STePS 6100 (maybe slightly less for 8000 because it has 17% more max torque). That seals it then, I want the STePS 8000 motor since it's tunable with Shimano's app, has higher max torque, and is available on a more desirable build from BMC. So the BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Road One it is for me. Putting my order in for this bad boy this coming week! :D

I'll probably hold on to my Raleigh Tamland iE, but perhaps this new BMC will replace my Bosch-equipped Haibike Race S 6.0. I really want a Shimano-equipped bike due to Shimano's massive range advantage over the competition, and I want it to be super lightweight and nimble to complement the heavier gravel bike it'll sit alongside. Yes the Race S 6.0 is class 3 which is desirable, but my other e-bike will be class 3 still. I hear Felt is working on a drop-bar e-bike, and they use Shimano motors as well, but you can't wait forever for bikes that may or may not ever come out (and may or may not be exactly what you're hoping for). It's time to pull the trigger on something! :D
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
Is quite an old road ebiek by now. It has been out for 6+months.
But Compared to the unbelievably underpowered cheap fazua systems the Bmc is much much better.

But Specialized Creo is very new amd much better then the Bmc !! About 5-9lb lighter and with an additional 250wh portabe pack. But is very expensive.
I like BMC also . And Trek Domane E+.
And the Bulls road ebike for 2020. The 28mph one not the fazua one.
Those 4 are tje beat e road bikes.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
Is quite an old road ebiek by now. It has been out for 6+months.
But Compared to the unbelievably underpowered cheap fazua systems the Bmc is much much better.

But Specialized Creo is very new amd much better then the Bmc !! About 5-9lb lighter and with an additional 250wh portabe pack. But is very expensive.
I like BMC also . And Trek Domane E+.
And the Bulls road ebike for 2020. The 28mph one not the fazua one.
Those 4 are tje beat e road bikes.
Thanks for the message. Those are some pretty nice bikes too! The fact that the ones you listed are all class 3 is appealing. The weight of the Specialized is undeniably impressive. It ought to be for close to twice the price! ;)

I have a sneaking suspicion the range advantage still goes to the BMC, though, over all those bikes. I think that's true even with the Specialized 250 Wh portable pack added in. Apparently the Specialized goes up to 129 Km with the portable pack added, but I expect to beat that on the BMC with only its stock battery. Shimano STePS 8000 is rated for up to 100 KM of range on an E-MTB with a 504 Wh riding on dirt and doing 800 metres of vertical climbing. Move that motor and battery onto a road bike and watch the range climb like crazy! :) Shimano's 6100 motor is rated for up to 195 Km on the 504 Wh battery under typical "hybrid" riding conditions, to put into perspective what's possible. I own a bike with a Bosch Performance Line Speed motor, and have owned multiple bikes with Brose Drive TF motors, and had a bike with a STePS 6100 motor for a while. The range of the STePS motor easily bested the rest, and by a significant margin. But I'm always open to newer and better information!

So you're right to say that there are some bikes that compete better with the BMC than I realized! I think when you look at the price vs. the weight vs. the range, thought, the BMC is the best. However, if range isn't your #1 priority, then you might prefer one of the others for sure.

I'm in Canada, and I don't think any of those class-3 bikes you mentioned are for sale here. Specialized and Trek for sure don't sell class 3 bikes here, so I'd likely need to import. So the fact that range, bang for the buck, and official Canadian service/support are the priorities for this bike, the BMC wins this round for me due to my priorities this time around. Next time might be different though! :)
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
What makes the 8000 motor so efficient ? Is it b/c it delivers less NM , can do a longer range ?
 

FlatSix911

Active Member
What makes the 8000 motor so efficient? Is it b/c it delivers less NM, can do a longer range?
Here are a couple of good articles on what makes the Shimano E8000 a winner for Reliability and Range... ;)


I own a bike shop in BC, so possibly similar terrain to the OP (they didn't say where in southwestern BC they are). We have customers doing that kind of mileage, such as the woman I mentioned in the previous post who has now done over 20K klicks. She bought the bike in January 2017, so she's coming up on three years of ownership. Other than new bike parts (brake pads, chains, etc.), the only thing she's had to do is that one motor re-and-re (remove, regrease with electrically conductive waterproof grease, and reinstall). She's doing about 7500 KM a year or so on a Shimano STePS 6000 motor.

All my high mileage customers have opted for Shimano e-bikes (probably because Shimano e-bikes are typically the longest range per Wh of battery, so these kinds of customers gravitate to Shimano e-bikes), so I can't offer any similarly high-mileage anecdotes for Bosch, Brose, or Yamaha yet, and we no longer sell anything from companies without track records of long parts availability so I can't comment on the reliability of no-name product over the long haul (other than to say our experience with it in years past, meaning product we sold 2015 and earlier, was very bad).

1574138547264.png


The Shimano system edges it here because overall we feel it has an excellent ride feel, a control system that’s designed specifically for e-MTBs and works really well, and really good range as well. It’s one of the lighter systems too. At the other end, the Brose motor, while it was joint top in the urban motor shootout, doesn’t fare so well here. It’s heavier, and the lower range for the same battery capacity means that it doesn’t feel quite as suitable for the trails. Brose have completely revamped their mid-motor with the all new Brose Drive System for 2019, which we'll be testing very shortly and updating this guide when we've done so.
 

Captain Slow

Active Member
Hmmm, that's interesting that Shimano is the most efficient. I'm not sure I'm a high mileage customer, but certainly some days I plan on doing longer rides so all other things being equal I'd chose what has the best efficiency.

I had been considering the 2020 Giant line, but I'm slightly turned off by the 375 wH battery. I guess I'll have to ride a few different road ebikes this coming spring and see what I like.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
What makes the 8000 motor so efficient ? Is it b/c it delivers less NM , can do a longer range ?
Shimano is more efficient all the way up and down its product line. I can't think of a single competitor that get more mileage per Wh out of a motor of similar torque installed on a similarly-equipped bike.

Why does Shimano have such a range advantage? Shimano's motors are more efficient in design, I suspect. In the same way an LED lightbulb can produce a lot more light per watt than an incandescent lightbulb.

Shimano STePS 6000 was rated for 60 kilometres of range at 50 Nm of torque on a 418 Wh battery. Its replacement, STePS 6100, is rated for 75 KM at 60 Nm of torque on that same battery. That's 25% more range at 20% more torque. Either that range or that torque improvement would be impressive, but getting *both* at the same time is crazy impressive IMO. That's on the same bike, with the same 418 Wh battery. Shimano just improved the efficiency of their design. And they did that despite already have a range advantage over the competition with their older motor.

Shimano seems to have consistently made range a priority. The 40 Nm Bosch Active Line motor is rated for about 27 Km of range on high (400 Wh battery), whereas the 40 Nm Shimano STePS 5000 is rated for 75 Km of range on high (418 Wh battery). I can only presume that Bosch either didn't put as much effort into improving range, or simply was less successful than Shimano, as the Bosch motor is not lighter weight, and doesn't appear to be less expensive, or have anything I can easily point to that justifies the range differential. The Shimano motor is a little newer, so perhaps Bosch is working on something newer themselves that will improve range. If so, they're taking their sweet time to get it to market. The improvements to Bosch's product line for 2020 seemed focused on the high end, and seemed focused on weight and size reductions, but I haven't read anything about significant range improvements with the new motors yet.

Bosch has huge marketshare, and started out in Europe where communities are pretty compact and e-bike trips are probably shorter. Shimano has small marketshare and is trying to grow it, and perhaps they've identified range as a differentiator so they're working that angle. It is for my customers, so it's mission accomplished if so. At least here in North America, long range is highly desirable for a great many customers. I would argue that long range should be highly desirable for all educated customers, even if all they do is short trips. A long range motor lets you spec a smaller/lighter/cheaper battery, and it reduces the number of battery charges required (smaller batteries being replaced less often = potentially huge long-term cost savings). I've owned Bosch and Brose-equipped bikes up until now not because I prefer their electric systems, but because I have wanted class 3 bikes and Shimano doesn't do that. I'm fine with class 1 for my next e-bike purchase, and I want super long range on a charge for this one, making it a no brainer for me that this new bike will have a Shimano motor based on the products currently in the marketplace.

I regularly do short e-bike trips, but sometimes I'll do trips that are hundreds of kilometres in length. For short trips, a long range motor means more convenience and less wear and tear on the battery. For long trips, a long range motor means taking fewer batteries with me and/or stopping to recharge less. There's no scenario where a long range motor isn't desirable. Right now, Shimano absolutely owns this side of the market. The competition's solution seems to be to keep making larger/heaving/more expensive batteries (Specialized is up to a single 750 Wh battery, Bosch is up to dual 625 Wh batteries, etc.). Shimano's getting more range out of their 418 Wh batteries than Bosch is getting out of a 500 Wh battery, so I like Shimano's approach far better. I also like the replacement costs of Shimano batteries being between $650-$890 CAD, vs. Bosch batteries being between $885-$1357 CAD! Speaking as a bike shop owner, everything about range and batteries favours Shimano, at least in the Canadian market.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize that Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha also offer great products. How can I deny it when I'm currently riding bikes exclusively from Shimano's competition? But their advantages are not in range and battery cost, at least not vs. Shimano.
 
Last edited:

Mass Deduction

Active Member
Hmmm, that's interesting that Shimano is the most efficient. I'm not sure I'm a high mileage customer, but certainly some days I plan on doing longer rides so all other things being equal I'd chose what has the best efficiency.

I had been considering the 2020 Giant line, but I'm slightly turned off by the 375 wH battery. I guess I'll have to ride a few different road ebikes this coming spring and see what I like.
I'd worry less about how many Wh of the battery, and more about how many kilometres you can get on a charge. Shimano STePS 5000 can get 75 KM of distance with a 418 Wh battery. Bosch Active Line is the same torque, but only about 35 KM of distance on a 500 Wh battery. They're both the same amount of torque, and yet the Bosch offering is less than half the mileage despite a battery that's about 20% larger!

To the end consumer, I think the two numbers that matter most when comparing the range of quality mid-drive units are how many kilometres on a charge at a given amount of torque. The torque compares very well between the big four brands, so do some test rides to determine how much torque you need. Then find something with at least that much torque, but also at least the range you're hoping for. More torque is always better, as you can step down from high to medium (or even low) to extend range. More range is always better, as it means fewer recharge cycles and that's money in your pocket over the long run as it'll reduce the wear and tear on the battery.

For most consumers who don't need much torque STePS 5000 is a great option. Most consumers who need a bunch more torque should go STePS 6100. STePS 5000 and STePS 6100 are both the same range on high, but the torque on high is 50% higher for STePS 6100. So effectively you can ride a STePS 6100 bike on medium and have a similar experience to STePS 5000 on high, except in that scenario you'll effectively get about 50% more range on the STePS 6100 bike due to its greater torque letting you use it in a lower level of assist.

I'm always open to new and better information, but from what I see Shimano at the moment has a range advantage across its entire product line. Shimano appears to have a small range advantage on the high end, but a gigantic range advantage on the entry level.
 

FlatSix911

Active Member
I'd worry less about how many Wh of the battery, and more about how many kilometres you can get on a charge. Shimano STePS 5000 can get 75 KM of distance with a 418 Wh battery. Bosch Active Line is the same torque, but only about 35 KM of distance on a 500 Wh battery. They're both the same amount of torque, and yet the Bosch offering is less than half the mileage despite a battery that's about 20% larger!

To the end consumer, I think the two numbers that matter most when comparing the range of quality mid-drive units are how many kilometres on a charge at a given amount of torque. The torque compares very well between the big four brands, so do some test rides to determine how much torque you need. Then find something with at least that much torque, but also at least the range you're hoping for. More torque is always better, as you can step down from high to medium (or even low) to extend range. More range is always better, as it means fewer recharge cycles and that's money in your pocket over the long run as it'll reduce the wear and tear on the battery.

For most consumers who don't need much torque STePS 5000 is a great option. Most consumers who need a bunch more torque should go STePS 6100. STePS 5000 and STePS 6100 are both the same range on high, but the torque on high is 50% higher for STePS 6100. So effectively you can ride a STePS 6100 bike on medium and have a similar experience to STePS 5000 on high, except in that scenario you'll effectively get about 50% more range on the STePS 6100 bike due to its greater torque letting you use it in a lower level of assist.

I'm always open to new and better information, but from what I see Shimano at the moment has a range advantage across its entire product line. Shimano appears to have a small range advantage on the high end, but a gigantic range advantage on the entry level.
Thanks for the detailed comparison of the Shimano 5000 and 6100... what is your opinion of the Shimano 7000 vs. 8000?
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
Thanks for the detailed comparison of the Shimano 5000 and 6100... what is your opinion of the Shimano 7000 vs. 8000?
STePS 8000 is about 17% more max torque than STePS 7000, but that's potentially really useful or nearly useless depending on the context. If you're bombing up a steep fire road you may want a lot of torque, but if you're doing gnarly/technical stuff then you might just be putting it in medium assist anyway.

Both STePS 7000 and 8000 are tunable with Shimano's mobile app, which lets you modify how much assist each mode gives you, so that gives each of them a huge advantage over STePS 6100 which doesn't support tuning of the levels of assist. The weight between 7000 and 8000 isn't much different, and neither are their sizes. I suppose you could get STePS 8000 and tune it to be more like the torque of 7000, and maybe get a bit of a range boost over 7000 from that. Or maybe not, as 7000 is a newer motor and might have all the efficiency of 8000 already baked in. I haven't been able to test that theory either way yet, but I hope to.

So if there's a significant cost savings, go STePS 7000. However, if the 17% higher max torque is important to you, or the cost difference is minor, definitely go STePS 8000. I expect we'll see a lot of STePS 7000 on 2020 E-MTBs. I hope we'll see it on a lot of city and trekking bikes for the 2021 model year as well. I think there are a lot of consumers (especially bike commuters) who would benefit from the ability to tune the levels of assist!
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
But at what speeds are those range measured ?
same speeds and rider weight for both ?
A class 3 Shimano would obviously eat the battery fast and offer a much shorter range.

A class 3 ebike is mandatory in the Us. Well for most people.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
But at what speeds are those range measured ?
same speeds and rider weight for both ?
A class 3 Shimano would obviously eat the battery fast and offer a much shorter range.

A class 3 ebike is mandatory in the Us. Well for most people.
Those are class 1 bikes, and they're measured at class 1 speeds. My understanding is that Shimano tests their trekking motors on relatively flat ground, with relatively still wind, riding right at the maximum assisted speed the entire time. However, that proves to be pretty reasonable in real world terms. By testing the motor at the max assisted speed for the entire time, most people will at least get something close to that even if they're riding a hillier route or facing a worse headwind. And that's what we typically find with our customers, and that's what I find when I test-ride bikes with Shimano motors personally. We also find Shimano's estimates (on a percentage basis) are at least as accurate as the estimates from any other motor manufacturers.

Yes, class 3 e-bikes do drain battery faster, and do therefore have a shorter range. All the comparisons I cited vs. Shimano motors were also class 1 motors to make the comparisons fair.

I bet there are a lot more class 1 e-bikes sold in the U.S. than class 3. E-bike suppliers selling into the U.S. seem to offer a lot more class 1 models than class 3 models. Pricing probably dictates some of that. But I've been surprised at how many people (especially people who aren't traditional bike enthusiasts) not only find 32 km/h fine for them, but find anything faster intimidating to ride. I say this as someone who owns and rides class 3 bikes, but just trying to be realistic about the market.
 

linklemming

Active Member
I'd worry less about how many Wh of the battery, and more about how many kilometres you can get on a charge. Shimano STePS 5000 can get 75 KM of distance with a 418 Wh battery. Bosch Active Line is the same torque, but only about 35 KM of distance on a 500 Wh battery. They're both the same amount of torque, and yet the Bosch offering is less than half the mileage despite a battery that's about 20% larger!

To the end consumer, I think the two numbers that matter most when comparing the range of quality mid-drive units are how many kilometres on a charge at a given amount of torque. The torque compares very well between the big four brands, so do some test rides to determine how much torque you need. Then find something with at least that much torque, but also at least the range you're hoping for. More torque is always better, as you can step down from high to medium (or even low) to extend range. More range is always better, as it means fewer recharge cycles and that's money in your pocket over the long run as it'll reduce the wear and tear on the battery.

For most consumers who don't need much torque STePS 5000 is a great option. Most consumers who need a bunch more torque should go STePS 6100. STePS 5000 and STePS 6100 are both the same range on high, but the torque on high is 50% higher for STePS 6100. So effectively you can ride a STePS 6100 bike on medium and have a similar experience to STePS 5000 on high, except in that scenario you'll effectively get about 50% more range on the STePS 6100 bike due to its greater torque letting you use it in a lower level of assist.

I'm always open to new and better information, but from what I see Shimano at the moment has a range advantage across its entire product line. Shimano appears to have a small range advantage on the high end, but a gigantic range advantage on the entry level.
I currently have a Brose Bulls Evo 3 27.5+ with 650wh battery. About a year ago, while I had it in for some front shock warranty work I was given a Bulls FS 27.5+ with a shimano steps 8000 system and 500wh battery and got to ride that about 300miles.

On shorter/all highest asisst rides riding right at the 20mph limit (about 25 miles), the shimano would basically run out of juice. It did this on 4 rides. Heartrate data/average speed was basically the same as the same route on the Brose bikes. The same rides on my Brose usually come back with 2 out of 5 bars remaining. I have gotten it down to 1 bar in pretty high wind rides(30+mph).

So....for me, will the shimano e8000 with 500wh battery compare rangewise to my Brose equipped 650wh battery. Not even close.

I didnt like the high noise of the shimano although it definately always let me know when it was working:). I got more people asking me about it being an ebike than on any other ebike I have ridden. Never a peep from anyone about my brose bike. The pedal feel didnt feel noticably different on any of the technical MTB trails I took it on. I love the Brose system for this and is why I have it on two of my ebikes(also own an iZip Moda E3).

All that being said, I do like the shimano system for alot of reasons. I actually ordered a focus Jam 2 from jensonusa last black friday with shimano system but then cancelled the order. I wouldnt hesitate to buy a bike with it but range wouldnt be the reason. The Jam 2 was the lightest FS eMTB at the time and while the smallish (370whish) battery limted range, I had alot of use cases for it and it had an optional range extender pack. Thank goodness I cancelled the order as focus left the US market shortly thereafter....major bummer

After recently revisting and riding several ebikes (brose/bosch/shimano/yamaha), my next motor will probably be a yamaha/giant. They all have their pros/cons but the feel of the yamaha seemed closest to the brose (and almost as quiet). I seem to like bosch the least althought the new 4th gen on the trek allants looks promising

Who knows what black friday sales might convince me to get.
 
Last edited:

Mass Deduction

Active Member
I currently have a Brose Bulls Evo 3 27.5+ with 650wh battery. About a year ago, while I had it in for some front shock warranty work I was given a Bulls FS 27.5+ with a shimano steps 8000 system and 500wh battery and got to ride that about 300miles.

On shorter/all highest asisst rides riding right at the 20mph limit (about 25 miles), the shimano would basically run out of juice. It did this on 4 rides. Heartrate data/average speed was basically the same as the same route on the Brose bikes. The same rides on my Brose usually come back with 2 out of 5 bars remaining. I have gotten it down to 1 bar in pretty high wind rides(30+mph).

So....for me, will the shimano e8000 with 500wh battery compare rangewise to my Brose equipped 650wh battery. Not even close.[...]
Actually, your math suggests that it might be very close. Going from 500 Wh to 650 Wh doesn't sound like much of an increase, but when you do the math it's a 30% increase. And if you're usually coming back with 2 out of 5 bars (somewhere in the 20-40% range), and sometimes only 1 bar (0-20% range), but you have 30% more juice to start with, then actually from from them being "Not even close" your anecdote does make them sound very competitive.

Anecdotal evidence of one bike vs. another isn't proof of a lot, because there might be something mechanically (or chemically) wrong with one bike, or one might be more efficient than the other in some other way than the electric system, which is why I'm basing my comments on the experience of hundreds of bikes rather than just one. But nonetheless, I'm not surprised that the one with 30% more juice would come back with perhaps 10%-35% more battery remaining at the end of a long ride. :)

That said, in my experience Brose mileage is the next closest to Shimano on average, and that's one of the reasons why I take my Brose bike on long (hundreds of kilometres in length) e-bike trips.

You also made some comments about the noise, and Brose motors are undeniably quieter than Shimano. That's partly due to their belt-driven nature. That unfortunately leads to more maintenance than non-belt-driven motors in our experience, sadly. We typically have to re-and-re Brose motors after several thousand kilometres for this reason, whereas our shop sells hundreds of Shimano e-bikes and the only one that's ever needed a re-and-re did so after 20K km. My personal Brose bike needed its re-and-re after about 3K km. I love my Brose bike and will probably own it and enjoy it for years to come, and I enjoy its advantages, but I also acknowledge its disadvantages.