Bulls Outlaw E45 Green Mover

Discussion in 'BULLS Forum' started by grench, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    I have ridden the bike for a few days now and thought I would give an update.

    The things I really like about the bike.
    1. Torque - this bike gets up to speed very quickly with the relatively small geared motor. It is similar to how the Easy Motion geared motors feel with more torque but does not pulse like the BH bikes. I don't have any large hills here to climb but I found a few areas where I could climb a couple of hundred feet. It is real impressive.
    2. Brakes will stop you on a dime. They actuate without much pressure.
    3. Very comfortable bike to ride. The body position is slightly more aggressive than the Stromer ST1 for comparison. I would say the handlebars are aprox 1" lower for my 5'10" frame. The Schwalbe Super Moto X 27.5" tires with the front suspension fork dampens our rough roads.
    4. The bike feels very nimble. It reacts quickly.
    5. Shifting on the bike is quick and clean.

    General stuff
    1. The assist levels act like a speed controller. The assist gets stronger as you go up obviously but the speed where the motor stops assisting also goes up. (all in kph) Eco - 21 Tour - 26, Climb - 31, Sport 45. I am basing this off of the same level of effort I put into the Stromer ST1. My heart rate stays between 145-155.
    2. I think the bike will out accelerate the ST1 but it does not hold the speed as easy.
    3. The display only reads kph you cannot change it to mph. This is supposed to change with later models this year. I am not sure if mine will be able to be updated.
    4. The frame feels solid. I was 346lbs this am. I do not feel any frame flex from this bike. Very well made.
    5. I rode twice yesterday climbing every little hill I could find, cruising on deep gravel and groomed gravel paths. I totaled 32.7 miles on Strava. I was trying the same sections on all four levels of assist to compare and finished the last segment with a 9 mile Sport speed run home. This battery is larger than the ST1 but I think it consumes a little more at the same speeds. My thought is you will get a similar range from this battery as you get from the 11.5 ah ST1 battery.

    Things I changed
    1. The saddle...lol definitely not made for my bottom side. I put a Brooks B67S.
    2. The grips - I changed to Egron GP6.
    3. The Pedals - The welgos which came on the bike felt really small. The X shape left the outside of my foot unsupported. I felt like I was trying to move my foot closer to the bike for support. This made me rub against the crank arm.
    4. Stem Riser - The riding position is probably about 1" lower on the front end. The stem riser I put on is a little too tall. I may take it off and see if I can adjust.

    Things I would change about the way this bike operates. This is a short list. I really enjoy riding this bike. I have not ridden the ST1 since this bike arrived. My general thought is this. If I am going riding I will probably take this bike. If I am in a hurry or commuting on a day when I just want to get the trip over with...I will take the ST1.
    1. I really didn't like the speed wall you hit at lower levels of assist. The more I ride this bike the less of an issue it becomes. If you want to go faster just change the assist level. This is very different from the ST1. With ST1 I put it in Eco and forget about the assist level. I also think this is why the bigger battery on the Bulls will equal the range of the ST1's slightly smaller battery...The Bulls consumes more watts due to having to up the assist level to get higher speeds. If you rode at the lower speeds I thinks the range of the Bulls would probably be better. I will not be able to confirm this...I like to ride as fast as I can. Sorry.

    Inclosing this bike a lot of fun to ride. I wouldn't hesitate to buy this one again. I would be happy to answer any specifics if I can.

    Here is a short vid if your interested.

    IMG_0761.JPG IMG_0762-1.JPG IMG_0749.JPG IMG_0750.JPG

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  3. Shoestring

    Shoestring Member

    Very nice, Grench. I liked the video very much. It looks like a very good design over all. I hope you get a lot of miles out of it. Is the hub noisy or about the same as other geared hubs, or more quiet. Does it have an independent throttle?
  4. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    Thanks...hub is very quiet I think it makes less noise than the EM bikes I rode. The only throttle is the 6kph walk button. I will ask the Bulls guys if this can be increased and get back to you. I was able to increase the ST1 to 25mph. Maybe the controller will be similar on the Bulls???
  5. Ann M.

    Ann M. Administrator

    Awesome overview, @grench! Want to hear your thoughts about this Bulls ebike as you pile the miles on.
  6. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    Here is the response I received from the Bulls rep. It doesn't appear the codes or programming are going to be made available from the OEM. It is interesting the speeds I was able to maintain in each assist level are a little different...

    "To answer your question regarding the assist level, the setting is as follow:
    - ECO: assist level of 60% of human power and up to 20kmh (12.5mph) and then going down.
    - TOUR: assist level of 100% of human power and up to 20kmh (12.5mph) and then going down.
    - CLIMB: assist level of 140% of human power and up to 30kmh (18.75mph) and then going down.
    - SPORT: assist level of 170% of human power and up to 45kmh (28mph) and then going down.
    This cannot be modified at the dealer/consumer/OEM level as it is pre-determined by the manufacturer.
    Same with the walk- assist mode, this is pre-determined too and it is designed for the case of emergency.
    Hope this answers your questions."

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  7. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    Another small update. I rode home this evening and stayed in level 2 (of 4) the entire way. The bike used 52% of the battery. Here is the Strava
    Check out my activity on Strava.
    Averaged 15.3 mph over 20.2 miles.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
    JayVee and vincent like this.
  8. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    I rode the same route tonight on Level 3 (of 4). The bike used 76% of the battery. Here is the Strava.
    Check out my activity on Strava.
    Averaged 17.9 over the same 20.2 miles. Note: I had about a 10 mph crosswind for most of the trip tonight. I'm not exactly aero dynamic. My heart rate was also up about 10 points...probably because I was having more fun??
  9. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    I have been able to ride the Bulls Outlaw in the rain on several occasions. This mornings ride was crazy. It was raining so hard cars were pulling over and stopping in the bike lane! A couple of discoveries.
    1. The bike appears very water resistant
    2. You need to double your stopping distance. Even with the 208mm rotors stopping is less responsive in the rain
    3. Headlights and tail lights loose large a percentage of their effectiveness...cars don't seem to see you
    4. Riding without fenders SUCKs. There is no speed at which the rooster tails of water miss the rider
    5. The larger schwalbe super motos will hydroplane at higher speeds
    6. The Brooks saddle got wet even though I had the rain sleeve on. I think the rooster trails of water will penetrate anything...lol
    7. Get platform pedals with adjustable set screws for traction...my feet were soaked and they never slipped
    8. Use rain X on your glasses
    9. Make sure you have a towel at your destination. I never knew you could carry so much water :)
    10. Ride with leather gloves or your hands will slip on the grips

    And last but not least Ride In The RAIN! It is definitely a new experience. I promise you won't melt! This will also answer the concerns of the water resistance of your bike. At some point you are going to get caught in the rain if you ride. It is comforting to know the bike will take it. Or won't ;-)

    IMO - This is one area where the DIY kits suffer...water resistance. Purpose built bikes are water sealed (relatively).

    Check out my activity on Strava.


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
    Adam@BULLSeBIKES, J.R. and vincent like this.
  10. J.R.

    J.R. Well-Known Member

    I've found ebikes to be water resistant as well. Once riding in a snow storm, my non incorporated headlight had some water intrusion issues, but it never affected the bike. Another time the LED's malfunctioned due to snow piling up on the handlebars, but it didn't affect how the bike ran. I used some dielectric silicone grease on the connections and never had another problem.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  11. Shoestring

    Shoestring Member

    Hey Mr Grench, I haven't checked in for a while. How is that Bulls Outlaw doing? I love to hear an update on the performance/reliability. Any issues?
  12. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    @Shoestring you are just a little early. I have another 120 miles to go and I will post a 1000 mile update. The Bulls Outlaw is my go to bike these days. The Stromer ST1 is taking a break :D.

    I finally found a solution for mounting my Cree light and my Virb camera.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  13. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    Here is a night video showing how the mounts for the light and camera perform. I got a little bit of vibration on the gravel and the sound of the motor resonates through the frame. I made two four mile loops with a little commentary after each loop. The first loop is around 15 mph and the second is over 20 mph. The video quality was reduced to speed up the upload. The Garmin Virb makes high quality Vid.

    If your a big guy looking for an Ebike to make you feel like you dropped 100 lbs...the Bulls is a good candidate.

    JayVee likes this.
  14. Berry78

    Berry78 Active Member

    Thank you for posting this video...very enlightening..(see what I did there?).

    It was a bit scary when you passed those people 46s in..I didn't see them until the last second. Could you see them?
  15. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    Short update: 1231 miles on the Bulls Outlaw. (all miles can be confirmed with Strava)

    Flats = 2 back tire 1 front tire - quick change through axles and easy plug and play motor made these repairs painless. You need to carry a knife to cut zip ties and some spare zip ties to tie the wiring back in place - 3 places for a back tire repair.

    Electrical Failures = None (I did have an update to the battery firmware)

    Spokes = I have one spoke I have to adjust roughly every other week. No broken spokes (Knock on wood)

    It is the most comfortable Ebike I have ridden. My frame causes me to leave my two other ebikes on the wall racks. One note of caution: I am 5'10" and the medium frame is too small. I ride a large frame. I probably have strange body lengths for a 5'10" frame.

    The original bike had four flaws IMO:

    1. The speed was controlled by the level of assist.

    This problem was eliminated with an update to the software. The new program allows the bike to reach 45kph (29 mph) in any level of assist. This is an excellent update. I like to ride in ECO but want to reach top speed on my commute.

    2. The display read in kph.

    This was corrected with a new display - Provided by Bulls at no charge.

    3. Battery consumption.

    This bike has a huge battery - 48 volts 14 ah 673.4 wh. It needs it! Relative to an ST1 it consumes much more battery on the same ride. I have confirmed this on multiple rides with my son. He rides one bike on a defined route with me on the other. We then switch bikes and made the exact same ride. In all cases the ST1 uses less battery. One of my explanations for this increased battery use is the acceleration of the Outlaw. It is definitely one of the muscle cars of torque sensing ebikes. I have ridden with 2 different ST2 bikes and the Bulls will out pull them with my 350lbs verses < 200 lbs riders on the ST2s. As a point of interest: Both my son and myself think the Outlaw requires more rider input than the ST1 Platinum. You breath harder and my heart rate is approx 5 bpm higher (averaged over several comparison rides)...strange but true.

    I am currently providing Bulls feedback with videos to work on the software and get the battery usage to more efficient levels.

    4. There are no attachment points for fenders and racks.

    I am using the aftermarket clamp on fenders...definitely not as good as they need to be for a commuter bike. I am currently using a backpack for speed commutes and the burley travoy for slower commutes. Both have flaws which could be solved with panniers. Hopefully the 2017 frames will have attachment points.

    The 27.5 super motos and the front shock handle dirt roads, concrete paths, and pavement. They are good all around tires.

    I have said it before and will say again. If you are a heavy rider this is a stout responsive bike. Do yourself a favor and give it a test ride before you put your money in play.

    Let me know if there are any specific questions.
    vincent, JayVee and Ravi Kempaiah like this.
  16. Ravi Kempaiah

    Ravi Kempaiah Well-Known Member

    Most people don't realize how good of a bike this is...

    few days ago... @flymeaway was raving about his Tandem build and using THE strongest rims available (RYDE / Andra)....
    Guess what?

    The Outlaw E45 does come with RYDE Big Bull Andra Rims... :)
    JayVee and grench like this.
  17. Ann M.

    Ann M. Administrator

    @grench, good detailed feedback on your Bulls Outlaw, thanks! Are the roads you are riding mostly paved or are you giving this bad boy some trail time and average hilliness? I know all of that is on the Strava data but a quick summary would be appreciated, that would help us better understand battery consumption.
  18. grench

    grench Well-Known Member

    @Ann I live in Kansas - there are no hills:(. The rides have been split between paved roads, paved and gravel paths. My commute has about an even split of all three.
  19. flymeaway

    flymeaway Well-Known Member

    Assuming the wheels were properly built using the correct tension I'd say that's one part of the bike that you don't have to worry about. I've built quite a lot of wheels and the Andra rim was a joy to work with!!!!!!!
  20. jazz

    jazz Active Member

    Any update on throttle above 6kph?
  21. JamesY

    JamesY New Member

    I commute 34 miles round trip on a flat road. My key criteria is to be able to ride fast (with good pedalling effort), ideally 27+ mph. I can currently ride a Eflow Nitro, which I consistently ride it at 20-22 mph.

    can the Outlaw run this fast on a 34 miles journey?