Class 1 vs 3

jim6b

Active Member
Is it time to shut up and let's race?

Surely, someone has been settling these matters on the track.
 

Browneye

Active Member
Get a BikespeedRS dongle to unlock the speed restriction. It works very well and preserves all the display info correctly, except for maximum speed attained (it displays an overly optimistic 55 mph!). However, it will probably void your warranty. I got mine when the warranty was about to expire and have been using it for the past 3 years without issue on my Yamaha-powered bike.
This is fantastic!
I'll wait a bit and get some time on it, but then WHOOSH! Warranty be damned!! 🤣


EDIT: Does anyone know what currency they are selling their product at? And shipping costs? I couldn't tell if it was German marks or British pounds. Nor a way to contact them.
As an aside, there are slew of tuning units on ebay for the yamaha drive - US sellers, some from Czech, etc. Pear, and Tuner-Box. Any word on those? Also found the threads here on the RS.
 
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StmbtDave

Member
As an aside, there are slew of tuning units on ebay for the yamaha drive - US sellers, some from Czech, etc. Pear, and Tuner-Box. Any word on those? Also found the threads here on the RS.
I ordered a SpeedBox 2 for my 2019 Yamaha Wabash on Sept 30 from Action Sports out of Poland on Etsy. Their listing said delivery Oct 2-9 but I still haven't received it and this is now Oct 24. I've been going round and round with them and they now say I must wait 30 business days before they will deal with it. DON'T order from them.
 

Bicyclista

Active Member
EDIT: Does anyone know what currency they are selling their product at? And shipping costs? I couldn't tell if it was German marks or British pounds. Nor a way to contact them.
As an aside, there are slew of tuning units on ebay for the yamaha drive - US sellers, some from Czech, etc. Pear, and Tuner-Box. Any word on those? Also found the threads here on the RS.
Bikespeed is in Germany and they list their prices in Euros. Click on the "Shop" tab and follow the prompts to select the appropriate model for your bike to see prices and shipping cost. You pay via Paypal. Their email address is info@bikespeed.de
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
... But the mainstream OEM mid drives such as Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, and Shimano, operating at low wattages and lower voltages are comparatively rather weak through most of the speed ranges when you get above 15 mph. They are fine for Europe which is where speeds are limited to 15 mph, and where most of the mid drives are sold, but they are doing a real marketing number on unsuspecting riders here in America, spouting highly irrelevant torque numbers and acting like those are apples to apples with hub drives. They aren't. Longer term people are asking for long term trouble on reliability attempting to use mid drives if they desire to maintain speeds over 20. It's gonna bite them on not just external drivetrain issues, and internal bearings and gears.

Not much more than 7 years ago, mid drives had numerous reliability and durability issues that made several oems pull back, and take their product off the market. People have short memories, or simply were not aware of ebikes back then here in the US, and while improvements have been made, it's no joke that Bosch was forced to come up with a field kit to address the outboard bearing issues that have happened so frequently it forced them to do that. And worse it was in warranty, meaning it happened way too soon in the lifecycle of those motors.
Every time I read a post from Mike, my BS meter goes haywire. He's been debunked many times yet keeps at it. Maybe they are comparatively weak, but that doesn't mean they don't meet the requirements for many USA use-cases. My mid-drive Bosch bikes provide more power than I need for a commute use-case. Or for a cargo use-case. I'm still a fairly strong rider and I don't expect or need a bike/motor that does all the work. I don't have a lot of miles on my bikes. Perhaps my Bosch motors will fail early. We'll see. I've read of many high mileage users of mid-drives and of Bosch. It seems external drivetrain issues are the easiest to mitigate/prevent. Monitor your components and replace when needed. As for torque numbers, perhaps they are meaningless. But at least for Bosch, they give me a relative idea of how their motors stack up. My CX is noticeably torquier then my other motors just as they claim.

When the videos and news were posted here about the release of Bosch's reconditioning kit, Mike took that opportunity to opine that it was evidence of Bosch's poor quality. Several posters, including someone in the UK who rebuilds Bosch motors, said it was evidence of many more units in service with high mileage users aplenty. And those posters said it was evidence of Bosch supporting its high mileage customers. Every time Mike makes claims, we ask him for industry data as support, rather than a few anecdotes. He can never support his assertions with data or even with first-hand dealer knowledge. Alot of major players/OEMs are building bikes with Bosch and Yamaha motors. Trek included and they've been around a long time. I doubt the quality is really as bad as Mike says it is with the major mid-drive players. Lots of assertions. Little data. Little first-hand experience.
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
Below are some recent stats from my commutes with Class 1 and Class 3 (one unrestricted Class 1 counted as Class 3). My commute has a lot of start/stop. I definitely prefer not having the Class 1 restriction but it is for being able to ride in the low 20s mph and for having some boost for making it through stop lights. Riding over above 26 mph, while pedaling, is out of my comfort zone. I use that only for sprints to make it through intersections.

My last 5 class 3 commutes:
Average distance 36 miles, average speed 16.7 mph

My last 5 class 1 commutes:
Average distance 26.5 miles, average speed 14.9 mph

My last 3 non-electric commutes:
Average distance 20 miles, average speed 11.4 mph

The more one's use-case is open road with longer distance, the more benefit is gained from a Class 3 (with some battery range detriment). But for leisure riding in city/urban environments, I don't know that there is a huge benefit. In fact, higher torque might be of more use vs higher speed. As I mentioned, I do like having the ability to accelerate past 19.x mph to make a stop light. Commuting on a Class 1, I try to cruise as much as possible at around 19 mph. Accelerating past that to make a light really isn't feasible.
 

Browneye

Active Member
Is the unlocker a big hit on battery life ?
It's going to depend on how much you USE it.
My guess it's gonna be a must-have in a very short time. The e-power is intoxicating. You get out on the open road and 25mph is nothing. We used to run a hun on the roadbikes (motorcycles). It was a great way to push back a LOT of miles. Thousands of them. Way more than you could get to in a car. 👍
 

e-boy

Active Member
I read on this forum that some companies software can read if an unlocker is or was installed and firmware updates will not install .
 

Browneye

Active Member
I read on this forum that some companies software can read if an unlocker is or was installed and firmware updates will not install .
An unlocker isn't 'installed', it's merely circuitry that tricks the speed sensor into thinking the wheel is going half the speed than it actually is. You can do the same thing by putting your speed sensor near your crank and putting a magnet on it. Obviously this way is going to mess up a display, but it's the same concept, just done through the speed sensor input.

I don't see/understand how it could block an update.
 

Rick53

Member
An unlocker isn't 'installed', it's merely circuitry that tricks the speed sensor into thinking the wheel is going half the speed than it actually is. You can do the same thing by putting your speed sensor near your crank and putting a magnet on it. Obviously this way is going to mess up a display, but it's the same concept, just done through the speed sensor input.

I don't see/understand how it could block an update.
So does this Unlocker thing make you class 1 whatever you want ? Have you seen these https://planet3.bike/

 

Browneye

Active Member
Class 1 is a bike with no throttle that is limited to 28kph(?). Class two adds a throttle. Class three is max 750watt motor and max speed 48kph. Beyond that is outside the legal definition of an electric bicyles and becomes a motor vehicle subject to all the constraints of same. I might be a km or two off the actual number, but thereabouts.

The programmer chips warn you that the modification makes the bike illegal on the road and that they are for closed course or private property only, not for use on public byways. The people buying them don't care. :p

That is an ingenious gismo there - I wonder if it would work on my bike. 👍

EDIT: Sent them an inquiry. If it fits my bike it's a perfect solution since I don't have a display anyway.

EDIT2: Watch the vid...love this guy. "Slow down, say hi, and don't be stupid". LOL
 
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Rick53

Member
Class 1 is a bike with no throttle that is limited to 28kph(?). Class two adds a throttle. Class three is max 750watt motor and max speed 48kph. Beyond that is outside the legal definition of an electric bicyles and becomes a motor vehicle subject to all the constraints of same. I might be a km or two off the actual number, but thereabouts.

The programmer chips warn you that the modification makes the bike illegal on the road and that they are for closed course or private property only, not for use on public byways. The people buying them don't care. :p

That is an ingenious gismo there - I wonder if it would work on my bike. 👍

EDIT: Sent them an inquiry. If it fits my bike it's a perfect solution since I don't have a display anyway.

EDIT2: Watch the vid...love this guy. "Slow down, say hi, and don't be stupid". LOL
The Website under the same name is responsive : The guy answers you right away . Plus there's a List on the site showing Bike's it works with
 
Class 1 is a bike with no throttle that is limited to 28kph(?). Class two adds a throttle. Class three is max 750watt motor and max speed 48kph. Beyond that is outside the legal definition of an electric bicyles and becomes a motor vehicle subject to all the constraints of same. I might be a km or two off the actual number, but thereabouts.

The programmer chips warn you that the modification makes the bike illegal on the road and that they are for closed course or private property only, not for use on public byways. The people buying them don't care. :p

That is an ingenious gismo there - I wonder if it would work on my bike. 👍

EDIT: Sent them an inquiry. If it fits my bike it's a perfect solution since I don't have a display anyway.

EDIT2: Watch the vid...love this guy. "Slow down, say hi, and don't be stupid". LOL
Hey Browneye, a BadAssBox works on the same concept as the Planet3. I got frustrated at running into that 20mph wall (that noticeable dropoff starting at around 18mph) and bought a BadAssBox off of EBay from an Australian seller who shipped to US. Used it for a few months, but removed it when I took my bike in to the LBS for regular maintenance. Haven't put it back on yet because I haven't been hitting that 20mph wall. I've been relying a lot more on human power lately, so that may be the main reason why. BadAssBox is also great because it's a 5 minute install/uninstall.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
I have a badass box for Bosch with just a few miles on it. It installed in minutes and worked perfectly. I did not like having inaccurate speed information on my display and purchased a Bikespeed RS instead.

I will sell the Badass box for $100, shipping included withing the USA. Shipping added at cost to other countries.
 

steve mercier

Well-Known Member
Or going down hill! I routinely take the lane and keep my speed at 24-26 while riding in traffic through town. This is when I use Turbo assist level most commonly. It is much safer than going 15 at the edge of the road.
Well put. Many people do not seem to understand this to be true but it is.
 

steve mercier

Well-Known Member
This so irritates me. I had the same experience at San Diego Fly Rides in La Jolla. They told me that the typical road biker is doing 20mph and that I'd never need to be going faster than this.

After buying a class 1 emtb, I realized that on flat roads, acoustic roadies are going way over 20mph on average. I also learned that a comfortable cruising speed for me was right around 20-21mph. I was stuck with a mid drive motor that would turn on and off and on irritatingly as I crossed back and forth over the 20mph cut off.

Trust me, on a class 3, on the road, you will definitely be able to keep a pace over 20mph. Not up hills, but definitely on the flats. Salespeople are sometimes if not often horrible and just trying to make a sale. That's one of the big reasons I do all my research and shopping online. A couple of hours on the allknowing interwebs and I'm able to stump most salespeople.
It is a temporary seasonal minimum wage job for most bike store sales floors. That is why good help is hard to find. Even if you find a knowledgable assistant they will have their own biases and preferences so you need to be clear on many things before you go into the LBS if you want to come home with the right bike for you.
 

Browneye

Active Member
I have a badass box for Bosch with just a few miles on it. It installed in minutes and worked perfectly. I did not like having inaccurate speed information on my display and purchased a Bikespeed RS instead.

I will sell the Badass box for $100, shipping included withing the USA. Shipping added at cost to other countries.
Interested...
Just reading about it on e-bike tuning dot com and there's a new version 4 FOR yamaha and syncdrive - I take it this is one of the original ones with an o-ring keeper, originally for the bosch motors/sensors?
Should still work though, right?
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Interested...
Just reading about it on e-bike tuning dot com and there's a new version 4 FOR yamaha and syncdrive - I take it this is one of the original ones with an o-ring keeper, originally for the bosch motors/sensors?
Should still work though, right?
Let's take this private. I will send info on a private message