CrossCurrent S - New Model

Discussion in 'Juiced Bikes Forum' started by youth, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    "These sorts of delays and changes are typical on new products manufactured in small batch (esp. in China). It doesn't surprise me at all that in the first batch of less than 300 bikes of a brand new design, they don't have every frame size/frame style/paint color combo available yet, or that a shipment is delayed coming from China. Is that fun for the buyer? No, but it's not that surprising. Waiting for red instead of black might be the compromise you need to make. Unless you've asked for a refund and they've refused, I don't think it's worth your time or energy to complain. If you want to be among the first to have a bike that has the specs of the CCS at the price point of the CCS, these are the sorts of hiccups to expect. But it was clear when I ordered this bike that I might not get much riding in this year on it, and I'm prepared to pull my pre-order if I decide there's a better option out there. But for right now for me, I'm ok to wait.The good news is there are plenty of other great e-bikes from larger companies that have stock right now and you can get through your LBS and even take home today. If you value a smooth and easy buying experience over the latest specs or the price point, that's totally the way to go. Pre-ordering a new product design in an immature industry that costs a significant chunk of change ain't for the faint of heart, I can tell you that much."

    Juice Response when I asked about Tektro 350 or 715 brakes on CC-S

    The CCS is spec with the new HD-E350, we had a limited number of bikes with fitted with the remaining HD-E715, those have been all pre-ordered. Bikes ordered now will have HD-E350 scheduled to arrive in October.

    Juiced Bikes Support Team
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  2. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    Ok I'm a bit of a noob what is the difference between the 350 vs 715?
  3. Fran Fabrizio

    Fran Fabrizio New Member

    I don't feel entitled to a free upgrade eBikeHigh (sorry, I think you edited your post after posting, but you previously said I felt entitled to such). I suggested it would be good customer service. Remember, we're in agreement that juiced has plenty of room for customer service improvements. That would be one way to make a gesture towards customers affected by delays this year (including you, including all the hyperfat folks).

    As for the brakes, when I ordered the spec sheet indeed said 350s so if I get 350s, so be it. They're still good hydraulic brakes. But the site also said preorders would come with 715s, so there was contradictory information and so I'm asking for clarification. The info you received still isn't clear since it says "bikes ordered now" and we're talking about bikes that were pre-ordered.

    Our whole conversation earlier was about what to expect from the process when pre-ordering a bike that's still being designed and manufactured from a small company. Doesn't mean I like it any more than you do or that I think the business practices of juiced are amazing, just that they are not uncommon and I therefore had different expectations. I believe I was the one who said that unless you have appetite for changes and delays, do not order this bike. So I'm obviously not surprised with delays and changes. :) However, it never hurts to ask the company for clarification and suggest ways they could improve their customer service.

    When I get the bike, it will represent tremendous value for the price and I'll be very happy with the bike.

    If my experience with the company continues on it's current path, about Juiced itself I'll feel "yep, this is a typical experience from a small company struggling to keep up with a popular product that lots of people want." They could choose to provide amazing customer service by doing some of the things I or others have suggested, and then my opinion of them as a business would rise from average and typical to something better, and that'd be great. But my goal isn't to make Juiced a great company, it's to get a great bike. In fact, it's specifically because it's a great bike that I'm willing to deal with the kind of headaches that come with dealing with a small company that's struggling with their customer service and order fulfillment. I also believe I said earlier that if a better bike value proposition would come along, I'd cancel my order with Juiced. So, that's where my priorities lie. In the meantime, it's clear that Tora is passionate about e-bikes and thoughtfully designs affordable e-bikes, and that's the company's strength, and it's also clear that stellar business processes are not his or the company's strength. This is an opportunity for Tora and Juiced to learn from all these service and fulfillment challenges this year and do something that makes it more likely that we'll order from them again, but that's a separate thing.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. doyle

    doyle New Member

    They really have a knack for not answering questions completely. So was the first container the only one that got 715s, or did anyone that made the late summer/early fall preorder get them? That was what the website said would happen, but this statement is ambiguous. I think most people honestly don't care one way or another which brakeset they get and trust that they specced something good. What's frustrating is the apparent tendency to overpromise and underdeliver with things like this. If they'd just said we have a limited number of HD-E715 and an unspecified number of early preorders will get them, nobody would have been upset and there wouldn't have been any confusion.
  5. Fran Fabrizio

    Fran Fabrizio New Member

    I think it's pretty apparent at this point that they did not expect to sell out the entire first container as pre-orders. All the language they had on their site during the pre-order period and all that has happened since points to this. They said that all pre-orders would arrive late August and ship soon thereafter, and that all pre-orders would have the upgraded brakes. Clearly they were expecting that pre-orders would only be a fraction of that first shipment. Oops. Growing pains. Will be interesting to see if the company learns from this, which will be shown both in how they handle rollouts of future generations of bikes but also in how they treat those of us who do not have our bikes yet and feel excluded from the brake upgrade that was described.

    There's some business 101 going on here. They have a product and price point that has generated high demand and currently has little competition in the market. This is why we're all willing to put up with the headaches - because we want the bike we've decided is the right bike for us and there's nowhere else to go get it at this price. So that's opened an opportunity where a company can currently do things like work connections in China and do some thoughtful design and sourcing of parts and put together a compelling bike package that seriously undercuts the competitor's pricing and entices people to pre-order and be early adopters. That gap will close, it always does - e-bikes will continue to get more popular, tech will get better, part prices will come down as manufacturing increases, and that market opportunity will be harder and harder to exploit. Of course there are companies right now looking at the CrossCurrent S and figuring out how can I assemble that cheaper or build a better bike for the same price? They'll eventually figure it out, then Juiced will need to either have to find a different, less mature segment of the market to attack, or find other ways to differentiate themselves.

    This is where good customer service now could pay dividends later. As consumers that's what would make us loyal repeat buyers. On the other hand, it could be a perfectly valid business plan to decide that generating repeat buyers is not a priority and that they're always going to look to ride that wave of bringing the first truly affordable well-spec'ed bikes to different segments of the e-bike market, or some other market altogether, such that they aren't competing with many other products in the marketplace and therefore they will continue to have a customer stream. As a company, they have limited resources and although of course most companies want to do well in all aspects of their business, these niche companies in immature markets rarely have the resources and experience to pull it all off, so they play to their strengths (which in Juiced's case is clearly on the design side). As consumers, we of course want it all - great designs at a great price with great customer service sooner than everyone else. There are very few companies who figure out how to do that well consistently while in immature markets. Once things become more commodity it's relatively easier to do that, and you see lots of market consolidation at that point. There are way too many small e-bike companies right now - the marketplace will work itself out and it will be interesting to observe how that plays out over the next several years.
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  6. doyle

    doyle New Member

    Yes, I agree with most of what you said. They did say they anticipated selling out the first container from the start, though.

    I have a bike from these guys, the Continuum, which was just an incredible value - gates belt drive, nuvinci hub, hydraulic discs, fenders included - for $950. They've since updated it to a dynamo hub+light with a $50 price bump. The owner, Dave Weiner, used to work for Giant, and he's no doubt using a lot of these connections (Giant does OEM frames). Ordering from them was a much smoother process (no missed dates or parts surprises), but they do have some of the same small company aspects, both good (email them and Dave will personally answer within an hour) and bad (they do a significant number of preorders too, I suspect for cashflow reasons).

    The reason I bring it up is because I recommend them all the time to nonenthusiasts - they have a cool niche, targeting near-zero-maintenance bikes - and I feel comfortable recommending them because I know they'll ship when they say they will. This isn't the case with Juiced - but if they got just a little better at managing their supply chain (or maybe more importantly, expectations), I would be recommending them to everyone, even though neither is as smooth an experience as driving down the street and buying a Trek bike. People respond to value (and a story), but on it's own, that's not enough, and you do have to at least pass the bar with customer service and quality.
  7. Fran Fabrizio

    Fran Fabrizio New Member

    Huh. I kinda remember that warning coming up well after pre-orders started, but I definitely could be mis-remembering.

    Funny you mention that. One of my team members was just in NYC for a conference so he dropped by their shop to test-drive the Continuum. He LOVED it. He won't stop talking about it. Unfortunately, he's 6'3" and their largest frame was still too small for him, but he said the bike was a joy to ride. Several of the bike commuters in my office have been talking about that bike a lot, the idea of a near-zero-maintenance bike is really compelling for them. Doesn't make as much sense for me with an 11-mile one-way commute - going as fast as possible is my primary goal - but most of the people in my office commute 2-4 miles. That bike would be ideal for them. No way to test ride it locally is what's kept many of my office workers from buying it.
  8. jazz

    jazz Active Member

    Yea pre-ordering IS not for the faint of heart and I would never recommend it to someone who needs a bike right away. As someone who has invested in several Kickstarter and Indigogo campaigns over the years, I have yet to receive any product within the expected delivery time frame. Everyone of them has been late to varying degrees (or not at all) and 100% were products designed in the USA and manufactured in China, just like all these eBikes.
  9. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    @FranFabrizio If you get free tires for your time, there are others who deserve free bikes for their waiting times. I think it's funny that you are saying there's so much transparency, yet you are looking for clarification on multiple things. I will enjoy reminding you to temper your expectations for anything. customer service, delivery dates, upgrades, etc. You are expecting a lot of customer service when you can't even get a contact phone number.

    "This is an opportunity for Tora and Juiced to learn from all these service and fulfillment challenges this year and do something that makes it more likely that we'll order from them again, but that's a separate thing."

    This maybe the biggest issue though. They want to appear as direct-to-consumer, a more personal relationship, yet customer service doesn't seem to be a priority at all. If business is bad the first time, why would I recommend it again?
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  10. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    Shipping update. Juiced provided the wrong model size on the shipping invoice so i am hoping they are sending the correct frame/color after multiple attempts at confirmation. They also sent the shipping company the wrong address. I can't change it and juiced needs to initiate switch with shipping companies independently. I am not confident at all.
  11. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    sucks, sorry.


  12. Fran Fabrizio

    Fran Fabrizio New Member

    I'm suggesting they offer a $99 (less for them) upgrade. You're suggesting they give away a $1,700-$2,200 product. Whatever you feel is deserved, which do you think is more likely to happen (not likely, just more likely)?

    Not mutually exclusive. They do have more transparency than many other companies that I've dealt with. They answer emails quickly and participate in online forums like this one. They've posted the status of their manufacturing and supply chain throughout. It is a lot better than some I've dealt with. Still a lot of room for improvement, though.

    Why is the person with high expectations reminding the person with modest expectations to temper my expectations? :) I'm not surprised by anything that's happened. I _said_ these types of things were going to happen.

    You're misinterpreting my point. I'm not expecting anything. I'm making suggestions on how they could improve customer service if they wish to. I also said why they may choose to not make it a priority.

    Which is why I was making suggestions on how they could improve. But again, as a small company in an immature market, they probably can't afford to do everything well, and for better or worse, this is not a priority for them right now, it seems. It's not that surprising to me - they've probably chosen to focus their resources on making and shipping bikes as fast as they can while dealing with a supply line that still coming together.

    I hope you wouldn't! I thought I made it pretty clear in my earlier posts that the reason we're working with juiced right now is not because of stellar customer service but because they have a product that we all really want. I said earlier that if/as soon as someone else has an equivalent product, they're going to lose customers. But again, as much as we want them to be a company with awesome customer service, they may simply decide to keep exploiting other advantages, like being the first ones to bring certain specs at certain price points to market.
  13. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    Neither is likely. I'm not suggesting they give things away. I am suggesting you are not entitled to anything, and there are many more that deserve an upgrade before you do. This is a can of worms.

    Yet you don't know what product your will receive (brakes?), when you will receive (they told you this batch), or how to keep in constant communication? (start a new sales ticket slip/no land line)

    I'm pointing the mirror back at you. I'm just replying to your comments with your own. How is wondering how come my bike wasn't produced considered having high expectations? It's fun to watch the person who told other to temper their expectations and then a month later expect/"suggest" customer service for their own.

    You're expecting them to consider you and your feedback, yet we know they don't prioritize customer service. You're expecting customer service. I'm saying that's a tall task with Juiced.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017 at 9:25 AM
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  14. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    shipping update: chat seems to confirm my fears. They shipped the wrong bike. They did not have invoice, shipping order, or my shipping information available despite multiple attempts at email and phone communications. Their system is very disorganized. Chat was not friendly. After letting chat know that I would take this to my credit card company to dispute charges, and have multiple documents of their continuous errors, they sent a follow up team email.
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  15. Fran Fabrizio

    Fran Fabrizio New Member

    *sigh* Suggesting and expecting are very different things. What's happened is exactly what I expected and I've been clear about that throughout this thread. I'm neither surprised nor that upset about the delays and changes. Minorly bummed, sure. It's gorgeous out and I'd love to be riding that bike right now. But if that were really my top priority, I'd have gotten an e-bike that was immediately available.

    It feels like you want me to be as upset as you are about the kinds of issues we're both experiencing. I'm just not that upset or surprised by it precisely because I did not expect it to be good. Although we may differ in how common these issues are with these types of companies, we agree on our opinion of Juiced in that their customer service needs work. I don't see why that should preclude me from making suggestions. I made suggestions because I know Tora reads this thread and I was curious to see if he'll share any thoughts on the issues. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

    I'll just wrap by saying that I hope you can eventually get the issues worked out and end up with a bike that you love and can enjoy for years, whether that's the CCS or some other vendor and bike. Best of luck to you.
  16. BallzOne

    BallzOne New Member

    How do they not have a land line? I just went to their site and it's right there: 888.303.8889

    Unless that number doesn't actually take you anywhere.
  17. Bryan

    Bryan New Member

    They have a land line. It's 619-746-8877
  18. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    My bike was one of the bikes without a headlight. I put in a support ticket and spoke with them on the phone. The light is in the mail. It took them about a week to get the light in stock... Just an FYI. If ya need to talk to them ... Just call. The number is on the site.

  19. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    cross post....

    FYI, as a point of reference other makers are having similar issues... as I'm guessing manufacturing in china and CQ is difficult. notice the comments.
  20. ebikeHIgh

    ebikeHIgh New Member

    Thanks andy. Its great to see how informational and transparent competitor websites can be.

    If anyone is interested in buying ccs Pm me. $1899 for shipping to Hawaii but we can discuss options on how i can offload.

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