Haibike Flyon......2019

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
#3
New 250 w drive unit with 120 newton. ......
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/...wh-battery-with-quick-charge.1013/#post-11448

The Drive Unit TQ-120 M1 Spizing .
Looks amazing.

  1. 10A fast charging to 80% within an hour is super cool.
  2. Carbon frame would lend to lightness and agility.
  3. 120Nm PIN drive is def a big improvement over Bosch CX or Shimano 8000.
  4. 5000 lumens for the front headlight and integrated tail light, is super awesome.
  5. Better sensor for higher sampling.
  6. Modular rail system and skid plates ( nice!)
  7. 630Whr + ultra-fast charging is super nice.
Adventr 6.0.jpg
All Mtn 5.0.jpg
All Mtn 10.0.jpg
All Trail 5.0.jpg
Nduro 8.0.jpg
 

MisterM

Active Member
#4
Looks amazing.

  1. 10A fast charging to 80% within an hour is super cool.
  2. Carbon frame would lend to lightness and agility.
  3. 120Nm PIN drive is def a big improvement over Bosch CX or Shimano 8000.
  4. 5000 lumens for the front headlight and integrated tail light, is super awesome.
  5. Better sensor for higher sampling.
  6. Modular rail system and skid plates ( nice!)
  7. 630Whr + ultra-fast charging is super nice.
View attachment 23438 View attachment 23439 View attachment 23440 View attachment 23441 View attachment 23442
That thing will fly off the shelves. Hit the trails in the morning. Have lunch, charge battery and hit the trails with a nearly-full battery in the afternoon.
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#12
While innovative to be sure at what point does the importance of integrated battery systems in the interest of stealth cross the line into an ugly bike that is not in the end hiding the fact that it is an eBike? To me this one goes over that line.

The quick charge feature is good and smart charging technology has been around for long enough, I had a Bosch Smart Charger for my cordless tools years ago, that it should be more prevalent by now anyway. However unless the bikes come with the new 20/21700 cells it is only a come on as by next model year if the manufactures finally go with them it will not be retrofittable.

Motor power output of the TQ sounds good but it weighs about 1kg more than say the redesigned Brose and Shimano units. The Bafang M600 series that weighs 3.4kg also advertises 120nm in a much less proprietary format. Today's "innovations" don't always represent what the future holds.
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
#13
Haibike has cut way back on speed versions in 2018. We'll be lucky to get one model out of these shown.
We had 4 models on this side of the big pond. 3 Bosch (Trekking, Race, Mountain) and 1 Yamaha (Trekking).

I’m hopeful at least one of the new TQ models will be a Speed Commuter.

Edit: I inquired - EU Speed Pedelecs will be identical to 2018.
 
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#14
I wonder how long it will take for a TQ dongle to appear.
The article seems to imply that the speed sensor is built into the disk and as such cannot be modded:

The speed sensor is on the actual disc, more commonly found on motorcycle ABS systems, you can see the smaller black disk inside the regular brake disk. The system monitors revolutions 18 times per revolution meaning that its more precise. What this also means is that it will be pretty much impossible for anyone that wants to unlock the speed restrictions as the disc is coded to prevent any speed modifications being added
My Bikespeed RS arrives later this week, which solves my last minor complaint about my SDuro, so it will be interesting to see if it truly cannot be modded to remove the top speed limiter.
 
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Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
#16
Seems like TQ systems have a long history. They debuted the drive systems back during the 2010 Eurobike.


Drives that look similar to TQ systems PIN drive have been around for sometime. Looks like @Mikey- , and @Timpo were not sure about the connection!

Here is a co-axial motor from E-prodigy. https://electricbikeaction.com/bike-test-eprodigy-logan/


E- prodigy motor.jpg

and the motor cutout for the co-axial motor.

E-prodigy motor cutouot.jpg

While the E-prodigy bike is quite nice, a slightly detuned version of that has been used by Optibike on their Allroad models.

https://optibike.com/pioneer-allroad-limited/

allroad-limited-motor.jpg

TQ systems have a uniquely patented PIN drive. I haven't studied this in detail but I did experience first hand back in 2014 when I tested the Spitzing models. They were most impressive when it came to power.


and here is the cut out of the TQ systems drive.

TQ systems drive.JPG

Actually, in this video, they briefly mention the difference between the cycloidal gear boxes, planetary gear boxes and harmonic gear boxes.


There is a much bigger DIY supplier by name Cyclone that has similar co-axial motor like the E-prodigy but can be run at 72V for incredible power. I have seen people rave about it but I am not sure of their reliability. I had a friend who sold his Optibike and got a Haibike because the motor kept failing.

Cyclone motors are quite famous among the DIY crowd but they can be PIA to install and maintain.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/

co-axial motor Cyclone Elite E-bike.jpg and the 3000w DIY motor Cyclone 3000 W motor.jpg

They are not going to be efficient drive systems like the Brose, Bosch or the Shimano but they do offer massive power and I expect the range will be lower. But, of course, Haibike has their own programming and the bigger 630whr battery to compensate for the extra power requirements. The sensors, controller programming and the power delivery will be the factors that may separate TQ+ Haibike combo from the rest of the crowd. They will be quite a bit refined.

Only time will tell, how this drive systems will be received by the market but I am quite optimistic.
These motors offer tremendous power and can eat the drivetrain quite bad but I am sure Haibike has toned down the power ramp up to ensure these things don't happen.

So glad Haibike is pushing things forward and exciting to see a new tech on the horizon.
 
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Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
#17
Article link: https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/haibikes-new-flyon-electric-bicycles-powerful/

"I suspect that the FLYON line packs even more punch than they are letting on. The battery is described as 48V, but it is also apparently a 56 cell battery. I have quite a bit of experience building Li-ion batteries, and battery nerds like me know that you can’t make a 48V battery with 56 cells, but you can make a 52V battery like that, which is a common method used to eek out extra power over a 48V system. So I suspect that this e-bike is really a wolf in sheeps’ clothing with a hot-rodded 52V electrical system, giving it a speed and power boost of around 8% over a comparable 48V system. If anyone can get their hands on either the battery or charger for one of these and do a voltage test, I’d love to hear what you find! "
 

LimboJim

Active Member
#18
Article link: https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/haibikes-new-flyon-electric-bicycles-powerful/

"I suspect that the FLYON line packs even more punch than they are letting on. The battery is described as 48V, but it is also apparently a 56 cell battery. I have quite a bit of experience building Li-ion batteries, and battery nerds like me know that you can’t make a 48V battery with 56 cells, but you can make a 52V battery like that, which is a common method used to eek out extra power over a 48V system. So I suspect that this e-bike is really a wolf in sheeps’ clothing with a hot-rodded 52V electrical system, giving it a speed and power boost of around 8% over a comparable 48V system. If anyone can get their hands on either the battery or charger for one of these and do a voltage test, I’d love to hear what you find! "
I read that article this morning, too. There were also reader comments along the lines of: "another 'bike' that poisons trail access for the non-motorized users. yay!"

IMO, this quest for increased eMTB power plays right into the anti-ebike argument from New England MTB Ass'n and other "traditional" mountain biker groups, further blurring the distinction between bicycle and motorbike. As the Federal definition says, "low-power" ebikes with functional pedals are street-legal, but we won't see "natural surface" acceptance as long as they keep increasing ridiculous torque out of 250W motors.

Here in MA, one of Haibike's newest "dealers" is Motorcycles508, who offer no other bicycles, electric or otherwise. Given the controversial nature of eMTBs in the USA, this kind of marketing and product development can only hurt the ebike industry's image as appealing more to motorheads than cyclists.

I've owned a few Haibikes now, and am becoming less and less of a fan. As a "leader" in the pedal assist world, I feel that they need to do more to get U.S. land managers and legislators on-board , and less to turn eMTBs into eMotos.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
#19
I read that article this morning, too. There were also reader comments along the lines of: "another 'bike' that poisons trail access for the non-motorized users. yay!"


I've owned a few Haibikes now, and am becoming less and less of a fan. As a "leader" in the pedal assist world, I feel that they need to do more to get U.S. land managers and legislators on-board , and less to turn eMTBs into eMotos.
I hear ya, Jim!
E-MTB'ing is an afterthought in the US compared to the market in EU.
~1 Million Bosch motors were sold in EU in 2016.... compared to measly 8,000 in the US.

People for bikes do a lot of advocacy. May be you can contribute through them and help bring awareness.
https://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/

I rarely pay enough attention to the comment section. It's mostly people have never ridden an E-bike and a bunch of snobbish bikers who can't stand the site of others enjoying the trails that they dominated for years. Things are bound to change and it is just a matter of time.
 

LimboJim

Active Member
#20
~1 Million Bosch motors were sold in EU in 2016.... compared to measly 8,000 in the US.

People for bikes do a lot of advocacy. May be you can contribute through them and help bring awareness.
https://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/

Things are bound to change and it is just a matter of time.
Hope you're right, Ravi.

I donate to People for Bikes, but don't get the sense that they're advocating much for eMTB access to natural surface trails on public land, at least not yet. They're up against some pretty staunch and vocal MTBers! For my part locally, I've taken at least two dozen different folks - mostly friends - on pedelec rides so far, and hopefully soon will be doing a small "demo day" with some Park Rangers and state administrators.

Them Bosch sales stats are NUTZ o_O but also reflect the current "no sharing" mentality for much of the US populace, IMO. US cyclists complain about ebikes zipping past them on roads, and younger MTBers hate being passed by old guys on electric mountain bikes.

That's what needs to change - ATTITUDES!
 
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