Haibike FLYON Delayed to Early 2020 for North America

Court

Administrator
Staff member
#1
Hi guys! I just received this notification from Larry Pizzi, President and Head of Sales at the Accell Group North America who asked me to share it with you here.

Attached is an update on the availability of the new Haibike FLYON Series, in the form of a brief frequently asked questions FAQ, along with the introductory press kit on the EU introduction. Because of the long lead-time to revise and prepare the drive and battery pack system for US and Canadian compliance to standards and top speed, the North American introduction will be delayed from the Fall of 2019 to early 2020. We ask that you kindly share this information with your readers to help us alleviate any confusion for our customers in North America. Should you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to let me know.

As Larry said, if you have any questions or feedback, just post here and I'll try to coordinate and get some answers. Larry has answered personally in the past so we might even see him checking in. I saw the FLYON drive unit on display at Interbike 2018 but wasn't able to get up close or ride it. Here's their North America FAQ:

haibike-flyon-electric-bike-engineering-view-exploded-diagram.jpg
  • Q: When will FLYON models become available for sale?
    A: FLYON will be available for the German market in May or June of 2019. This is an EU specific drive system and does not meet US or Canadian compliance requirements.
  • Q: When will FLYON be available for sale in North America?
    A: We currently anticipate FLYON being available in North America in early 2020, due to various US UL and Canadian UL compliance requirements and faster top speeds as allowed under US and Canadian regulations.
  • Q: What models of FLYON will be sold in the US and Canadian markets?
    A: Currently Haibike USA is accepting pre-orders of the following models which is subject to change without notice. If you are interested in placing a pre-order to ensure you an opportunity to purchase when they do arrive, please contact your Haibike retailer.
Model List Target Retail
XDUR NDURO 10.0 - $10,990.00
XDUR NDURO 5.0 - $7,499.00
XDUR ALLMTN 10.0 - $10,999.00
XDUR ALLMTN 8.0 - $8,499.00
XDUR ALLMTN 5.0 - $7,299.00
  • Q: What is the “FLYON price premium”?
    A: Based on similar specification package, a FLYON model Haibike will be approximately $2000 more than a comparably Bosch Power-tube model Haibike.
  • Q: Can I have access to purchasing an EU version of FLYON when they become available in 2019?
    A: No. EU versions do not meet the required North American compliance standards and will not be supported by Haibike USA or its authorized dealers.
 

Attachments

DDBB

Well-Known Member
#5
with todays interest rates the saying "put your money in the bank and watch it grow" is no longer true. When banks pay interest rates that are higher than the inflation rate, I might consider it. Unitl then, it's equities where one can lose a ton of money as evidenced by the last two trading days. So the stock market is risky, the banks don't pay squat , what's left? the casino!
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#6
Ok, put the money in a drawer and get the low end model:). The math allows for that. Just suggested the bank as you would be less apt to put your hand in the cookie jar.

The part I don’t understand is the delay due to the whole compliance to US and Canadian standards for top speed excuse. Fazua’s delayed introduction here had similar verbiage. The CPSC oversees eBike regs here but I fail to see anything in their regs explaining this other than the standard 750w/20mph one.

There are myriad systems that cross over seamlessly from EU spec to US as well as ones of Asian origin landing here, do they all meet this standard? Isn’t it just a firmware tweak if so? Just curious....
 
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LimboJim

Active Member
#8
Is it possible that a contributing reason for the the Flyon postponement might be that Haibike USA's parent company, Accell NA, had a massive shakeup in its administration this past year? This apparently resulted in some dealer support issues, among other things.

At least one dealer near me stopped carrying Haibikes because they had ridiculous wait times for parts etc., and they sometimes sent the wrong ones. According to this dealer, it often took several efforts to get responses to calls and emails from Haibike.

If they can't properly support existing lines in the US, why introduce new ones?
 

Chris Nolte

Well-Known Member
#10
I think it comes down to liability. The US is a very contentious society so most European brands want to tread carefully when entering the market here. Bosch made the bold move to require UL on all of thier products in the US. They’re the only ones to do this so far, but it sounds like other companies, like Haibike with their Flyon are exploring this same protocol. CE which is a similar standard in Europe is much less stringent.

Definitely some interesting times ahead in the Ebike biz.
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
#11
The M1 Spitzing e bike has the same drivetrain and much bigger battery, is already avlb. In Us. For similar price range. By 2020 there will be many brands with the Tq drivetrain.
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#14
While the Class 1/2/3 laws championed by the manufacturers and BPSA are in effect in some states the Class 3 law is not in accordance to the Federal regulations as enacted back in 2002.

"Public Law 107–319, 116 Stat. 2776 (the Act), enacted December 4, 2002, subjects low-speed electric bicycles to the Commission’s existing regulations at 16 CFR part 1512 and 16 CFR 1500.18(a)(12) for bicycles that are solely human powered.

Public Law 107–319, section 1, 116 Stat. 2776.
The Act defines the term ‘‘low-speed electric bicycle’’ as follows:
(b) for purposes of this section, the term‘‘low-speed electric bicycle’’ means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph."

Although this regulation was enacted 16 yrs. ago as far as I can tell it is still in effect today. To date the Federal regs have not been a challenge and obviously state by state lawyers that have adopted the Class laws don't seem to be bothered by it but how this will have effect on eBikes sold here as their popularity increases and as Mr. Nolte suggests the liability involved by our contentious society remains to be seen. Especially in regards to this addendum to the above regulations:

"The Commission’s regulation at 16 CFR 1500.18(a)(12) makes the determination that bicycles that do not comply with the requirements of 16 CFR part 1512 present a mechanical hazard within the meaning of section 2(s) of the Federal Hazardous Substances Act (FHSA). 15 U.S.C. 1261(s). The effect of this determination is that noncomplying bicycles are ‘‘hazardous substances’’ for purposes of section 2(f)(1)(D) of the FHSA, and are also ‘‘banned hazardous substances’’ pursuant to section 2(q)(1)(A) of the FHSA. 15 U.S.C. 1261(f)(1)(D), 1261(q)(1)(A). See also,Forester v. Consumer Product Safety Com’n, 559 F.2d 774, 783–786 (D.C. Cir. 1977)."

As I said in my previous post in reading the CPSC regulations there is no verbiage about having to certify any particular eBike system by UL or otherwise that I can find. So I am still not sure why Acell's statement reads as above.

Obviously things have changed in the eBike market since 2002 and perhaps the Federal Regulations should be changed to address this but from a manufacturers standpoint it would seem to be a major liability to get faced with a ruling in Federal court regarding an issue with bikes that don't meet the CPSC regulations as at the end of the day it could pretty easily be proven to trump any state regulations if one was to go to litigation at the Federal level over an issue regarding their product.

I am no lawyer and would be glad to have light shed on this as it has always bothered me about the Class laws as enacted.

There is legislation across the pond being considered to require compulsory third party insurance for EU compliant eBikes and if enacted is predicted to put a damper on sales.

https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regula...-on-compulsory-insurance-for-e-bikes-10134479

Facing this I am sure has sent manufacturers lawyers to very closely examine their liability and perhaps they are just being pro-active about the US market? As noted exciting times ahead for the eBike industry and lot's of dust to settle.
 

Chris Nolte

Well-Known Member
#15
It’s just an additional precation to take. Based on the percentage of half baked products out there I think it’s a prudent move. Think about how cars were manufactured before standards were developed.
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
#16
I think the delay also has to do with the fact that 120nm Torque requires a much bigger battery,
So a lot of the standards will have to be replaced ASAP. Bigger battery pack, different cases.
Is likely 8- 900 Wh should be enough for that kind of torque. That’s why that M1 bike has the huge battery pack.
Just imagine taking the FlyON ? on a hill at the full 120nm torque, with a regular 500 WH pack, the battery will finish quickly. Even 6-700WH not enough...
When That happens and it will happen very fast, a lot of our bikes with the 5-600WH will become obsolete. They will probably make sure that happens , by having the NEW batteries with different connectors and other changes...
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#17
It’s just an additional precation to take. Based on the percentage of half baked products out there I think it’s a prudent move. Think about how cars were manufactured before standards were developed.
I wholeheartedly agree Chris. At the very minimum all chargers supplied with eBikes should meet UL requirements given the consequences of failure during the charging cycle possibly igniting a Li chemistry battery yet few in fact do.

Eb01, There are no restrictions to the size of batteries to comply with. I don't see +/- 500wh batteries going away at all especially as the 2170 cell batteries that power the Flyon become more common place in the next few years. Especially for those models targeting light weight over power/range requirements.
 

Ebiker01

Active Member
#18
I wholeheartedly agree Chris. At the very minimum all chargers supplied with eBikes should meet UL requirements given the consequences of failure during the charging cycle possibly igniting a Li chemistry battery yet few in fact do.

Eb01, There are no restrictions to the size of batteries to comply with. I don't see +/- 500wh batteries going away at all especially as the 2170 cell batteries that power the Flyon become more common place in the next few years. Especially for those models targeting light weight over power/range requirements.

For mtn. Biking With a bike weight around 40lb and less, from what i calculated for a 165-180lb rider is still a short range maybe 30-40miles in eco/lev2/ maybe 3 . But some riders want to really go all out powwr on and frind the gears .. i mean if a bike can do 27-28mph they will hammer it to go fast. Is a lot of fun an e bike , as you know and then on a mountain trail there are some hills , inclines, a 200-225lb rider would do maybe 20miles at max. In a sport level pushing it fast and hard.
I have a road cycling background and we reg. Would do 80-90miles on a sat/sunday in spring/summer. On a mountain bike not aure how many miles a mountain biker does on a hard group ride. And i want my future e road bike to assist me for up to 100 miles, 20-21mph avg. ,
I can get back home and do grocery, play soccer or do running in the evening, all thanks to the tech. Advancements enabling a great reserve of energy left for out bodies to do other mo’ useful things in our lives.
I see already Bulls with their 720wh 21700cells Supercore batteries, BRAVO !!. Unfortunely they only do a max. 20mph. I see BH WITH THE X step and Atoms with 720wh batteries, so they are def. aware of a need of bigger powerhouse.
At speeds above 24-25mph the juice goes really fast , add some strong headwind and now i undertstand why Juiced bikes are ahead of tbe game and popular. 52vx21amps ! When will a corporate company make a pack like that ? Years away ...
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#19
"At speeds above 24-25mph the juice goes really fast"

Yeah, like in figure the same amount in wh/mi type of fast. Speed kills wh's. Even with active pedaling in high enough gears, which most eBikes produced are running out of at those speeds, putting enough human watts in to help is not going to lower wh consumption much. But you can still get a good workout. This is from a 52v 10ah 18650 pack run on varied terrain including some decent ups and decents.

IMG_5066.JPG

I have a 52v/15ah 780wh 2170 battery here now that I haven't been able to fully put through its paces but it does show promise for better mileage due to more efficiency at higher motor output due to the higher C rate. The bike I have been using it on is capable of high speed travel with the gearing to match but I haven't done much about testing that part of the equation yet. But I still don't think it is going to extend range much via lowering wh/mi consumption at speeds over 20.

Going a good clip, at least a better one that I can achieve manually, is the allure to eRoad biking for me. I'd like to do a century here from PDX to the Coast or vice versa but anyway I figure it I would need at least 30ah's of battery to do it at a 20mph average due to the coast range and the multiple ups and down along the way and a good effort on the cranks. I saw a post the other day about someone that was saying they went 95 miles on a 4 or 500wh battery, but they averaged 10mph.....A 9.5+ hour century on my planned route I can cook up on my own but for a five hour one I'd need assist and quite frankly is the only version I am interested in.

I'll be able to put the battery on my mid drive torque assist eMTB also when it get's some new bearings but I found the 3hr ride times with plenty of elevation gain I could achieve with a 520wh battery to be sufficient for my needs although I did run it dry a few times a few miles from the trail head. But there are always more hills to conquer and longer trails....Due to the slower pace of mtb however you do use less wh/mi in general if you can stay out of the higher assist levels but I think a 5 hr ride window with 4-5k gain would be doable with the new battery.