It’s 2025 what does your ebike look like?

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I always get a kick out of how crazy the suggestions get when you ask a question like this. Things like steering assist, heads-up displays, GPS navigation (even though 99% of us have that on our smart phones already), automatic transmissions, etc. It's like people can't give up their luxury car mindset when they get on an ebike.

Things like rear progressive regen replacing rear brakes, elimination of spoked wheels, belt or shaft drives, motors with built in gearing / ratio changing, somewhat higher assist speeds,etc. seem to be practical ideas.
 

Handlebars

Active Member
That’s the approach taken in the UK where to ride a Class 3/speed pedelec requires full motorcycle training, license, liability insurance, because “legally you’re riding a moped” see https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/electric-bikes-and-uk-law-53 and where the police can charge you with driving offenses, putting your drivers license at risk https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/riding-illegal-bikes-can-lead-to-being-charged-with-driving-offences.35927

Reclassifying Class 3 doesn’t have to mean losing sales, the Netherlands experimented with allowing speed pedelecs on bike paths for a few years then in 2017 reclassified them as mopeds and banned them again from paths but allowed them to use street bike lanes, sales are still growing Source https://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends/nieuws/2018/12/speed-pedelec-sales-shows-steady-growth-10134978
ebikes are vehicles and as such when on public roads one is subect to most of the same laws and offense charges as other vehicle drivers are.
 
If you an ebike is meant to be a commuter model / car supplement why would you be putting it on a car rack? That would be like putting a motorcycle on your car rack.
I actually met a guy who would commute by SUV with his bike in the back. At the edge of downtown he would park the SUV and ride in the rest of the way. Also I like to do touring with my commuter so I might throw it on the back of my car to get to decent trail.
 
I always get a kick out of how crazy the suggestions get when you ask a question like this. Things like steering assist, heads-up displays, GPS navigation (even though 99% of us have that on our smart phones already), automatic transmissions, etc. It's like people can't give up their luxury car mindset when they get on an ebike.

Things like rear progressive regen replacing rear brakes, elimination of spoked wheels, belt or shaft drives, motors with built in gearing / ratio changing, somewhat higher assist speeds,etc. seem to be practical ideas.
Amen
 
ebikes are vehicles and as such when on public roads one is subect to most of the same laws and offense charges as other vehicle drivers are.
I don’t worry much about cycling laws here in Ontario. I am breaking one of many laws every time I commute to wok because of how arcane the laws are. However the police absolutely do not enforce any of the cycling laws unless you plough into someone, then they throw the book at you. I had a officer pull me aside once when I was illegally riding on a sidewalk and I was expecting trouble. He actually was interested in ebike and just wanted to talk. Ride responsibly and I find you have no trouble. If I see seniors or small children I slow to a crawl as I approach.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Maybe for road bikes. But for mountain bikes, lighter is better, because it's easier to control a lighter bike on rough, steep terrain, and if you need to hike-a-bike (see my avatar image!) it's much easier to carry a lighter bike over obstacles.

I also expect my 2025 bike to be indistinguishable from a non-electric bike at a casual glance; to have a belt drive (well, my 2019 e-bike does); and to have automatic assist levels as well as being able to control assist manually.
Why is there this obsession that an ebike look like a tradition bike? Why can't an ebike highlight the drive system like most motorcycles do. I think a lot of biker's have their Spandex too tight.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I think we had this sort of debate on this forum before, but when people hear "28mph Class 3" they assume that people will try to ride at max speed all the time.
When we say Class 3 can be very useful, others say it's outright dangerous because 28mph is way too fast on bike trail.

We're talking about case by case scenario, obviously you won't be going as fast as possible all the time, but in some cases, the extra top speed of Class 3 can be very useful.

For example, you wouldn't be going 28mph in these situations:

Homer Bike Path

san francisco protected bike lane


However, you can go faster in these situations:

The East Bay Bike Path near Providence, Rhode Island
For some reason people just lack the ability to think rationally about assist speed. It's like they believe everyone that owns a sports car is flying past other cars and making everyone less safe.

All bikers should be aware that a human on a bike was able to average over 33mph for an hour. It was not considered a dangerous speed as spectators watched him from the stands and routed for him to set the record.

The assist speed does not limit the top speed of an ebike so this is a great question to ask the mamby pambies that think 32kph/20mph should be the the legal limit of the assist system:

If actual speed limits can’t be argued as the basis for the assist limit, what is it’s basis?
 

Handlebars

Active Member
For some reason people just lack the ability to think rationally about assist speed. It's like they believe everyone that owns a sports car is flying past other cars and making everyone less safe.

All bikers should be aware that a human on a bike was able to average over 33mph for an hour. It was not considered a dangerous speed as spectators watched him from the stands and routed for him to set the record.

The assist speed does not limit the top speed of an ebike so this is a great question to ask the mamby pambies that think 32kph/20mph should be the the legal limit of the assist system:

If actual speed limits can’t be argued as the basis for the assist limit, what is it’s basis?
"
If actual speed limits can’t be argued as the basis for the assist limit, what is it’s basis?
Speed limits aren't the basis, obviously. Low enough speeds to be comparable to unassisted riding at it's best seems to be the basis.
 

steve mercier

Well-Known Member
My bike will have a force field and a dongle that disengages car motors within a prescribed radius... oh and a seat warmer.
 

Al P

Active Member
If you an ebike is meant to be a commuter model / car supplement why would you be putting it on a car rack? That would be like putting a motorcycle on your car rack.
Our bikes are used strictly for exercise and fun. We sometimes take trail rides that are 5-15 miles from home. The roads to get to them are not safe enough to ride on. I have to mount and dismount two fairly heavy bikes twice for each trip.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
"
Speed limits aren't the basis, obviously. Low enough speeds to be comparable to unassisted riding at it's best seems to be the basis.
I don't think there is any single logic that can explain ebike speed limit.

What's the point of governing the power to 500W or whatever, instead of top speed?
For example, many ebikes will be barely moving if you try to climb up a steep hill. Cars will still pass you by at 30mph up hill.
Is it really that safe to climb hill at 5mph to 10mph when cars are passing by at 30mph?

How is riding your ebike uphill at 20mph more dangerous than going 20mph downhill?

Also, if ebikes can go above average person speed = dangerous?
Because I know many people found that ebikes' capability of fast acceleration to get out of dangerous situation (eg. busy intersection, overtaking other cyclists on trail, etc) very useful.

Ken M had a good point, those spandex warriors on roadbikes can go 30+mph on flat roads. Why is ebikes going 20mph, 28mph, all the sudden a big threat?
 

Handlebars

Active Member
I don't think there is any single logic that can explain ebike speed limit.
I think you're right about that, in that not every angle of what is given can be covered by any single "logic bit". It's a mishmash, poorly thought out and lacking in information.

I can point to the mishmash in what I already quoted showing that they don't understand the terminology they are attempting to use in support of their rules. They say that motorized bikes come in 2 kinds; some that look like bicycles and are therefore pedelecs, and that pedelecs REQUIRE pedaling, and that anything powered up with throttle only, is an e-scooter.
AND that pedelecs can go anywhere bicycles can- something else which is refuted by the law.
... City of Toronto's Municipal code recognizes two categories of e-bikes; pedelecs which are similar to bicycles, and e-scooters which are similar to gas scooters.

Pedelecs requires propulsion and are defined as a bicycle and can be used anywhere bicycles are permitted. E-Scooters can be driven solely by motor power and these are not allowed on multi-use trails or cycle tracks.

Pedelecs
E-bikes which are similar to bicycles are considered to be bicycles by the municipality of Toronto and may be used on all types of cycling infrastructure:

  • painted bike lanes
  • cycle tracks (separated bicycle lanes)
  • multi-use trails
By definition in the Toronto Municipal Code, a 'pedelec' must weigh less than 40 kg and requires pedaling for propulsion.
But all that aside, there is no need to say that only a single viewpoint must explain everything in the mashup. The driving idea, I believe, is to limit ebikes to NO MORE THAN what an able rider can do

What's the point of governing the power to 500W or whatever, instead of top speed?
Since they do BOTH, it's a moot point.


For example, many ebikes will be barely moving if you try to climb up a steep hill. Cars will still pass you by at 30mph up hill.
Is it really that safe to climb hill at 5mph to 10mph when cars are passing by at 30mph?

How is riding your ebike uphill at 20mph more dangerous than going 20mph downhill?

Also, if ebikes can go above average person speed = dangerous?
Because I know many people found that ebikes' capability of fast acceleration to get out of dangerous situation (eg. busy intersection, overtaking other cyclists on trail, etc) very useful.

Ken M had a good point, those spandex warriors on roadbikes can go 30+mph on flat roads. Why is ebikes going 20mph, 28mph, all the sudden a big threat?
The big threat should be obvious: 120mph capable ebikes on the horizon. On the sidewalk. That is a serious and realistic threat. So they in the dumbness try to put in reasonable controls and it's really working out fantastic so far. They haven't outlawed us yet or put onerous insurance and certification on the table.
 
I think you're right about that, in that not every angle of what is given can be covered by any single "logic bit". It's a mishmash, poorly thought out and lacking in information.

I can point to the mishmash in what I already quoted showing that they don't understand the terminology they are attempting to use in support of their rules. They say that motorized bikes come in 2 kinds; some that look like bicycles and are therefore pedelecs, and that pedelecs REQUIRE pedaling, and that anything powered up with throttle only, is an e-scooter.
AND that pedelecs can go anywhere bicycles can- something else which is refuted by the law.


But all that aside, there is no need to say that only a single viewpoint must explain everything in the mashup. The driving idea, I believe, is to limit ebikes to NO MORE THAN what an able rider can do

Since they do BOTH, it's a moot point.


The big threat should be obvious: 120mph capable ebikes on the horizon. On the sidewalk. That is a serious and realistic threat. So they in the dumbness try to put in reasonable controls and it's really working out fantastic so far. They haven't outlawed us yet or put onerous insurance and certification on the table.
Really 120MPH! Yeah with jet rockets and invisible shields!
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
"
Speed limits aren't the basis, obviously. Low enough speeds to be comparable to unassisted riding at it's best seems to be the basis.
An un-assisted rider was able to average over 33mph for an hour. I think if someone actually took the time to research where the 32kph/20mph assist limit came from we'd likely know it came from the 250-350W mid drive motor manufacturers that need the assist limit set in that range to have a competitive advantage vs geared and DD hub drives.