It’s 2025 what does your ebike look like?

Ken M

Well-Known Member
This is the obvious question given that bike speed is not limited by the assist speed and speed limits are utilized to regulate the speed of other transportation products.

We all know this has been over-done in many forum strings which just shows that even the "model legislation" advocated by People for Bikes is still not considered well thought out.
 

Handlebars

Active Member
An un-assisted rider was able to average over 33mph for an hour. I think if someone actually took the time to research where the 32kph/20mph assist limit came from we'd likely know it came from the 250-350W mid drive motor manufacturers that need the assist limit set in that range to have a competitive advantage vs geared and DD hub drives.
That would be a motive, then - not a basis.
 

Handlebars

Active Member
...speed limits are utilized to regulate the speed of other transportation products.
Yes and no. Because speed limit is most often enforced by law and posted legal limits, not by ability, you can have a private vehicle CAPABLE of going well over any speed limit. Commercial trucks might have a governor to keep them under the highway speed limit, though, in some areas.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
That would be a motive, then - not a basis.
No, It's absolutely a valid data point. You position would be that assist speed should be set by the slowest of the mamby-pamby riders and that is not a good idea. Can you imagine if Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari had to design their cars for the slowest of drivers. Very sad day that would be.

There simply is no "safety" data that indicates that limiting assist speeds on ebikes is saving lives so it's just making my commute more time consuming.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
No, It's absolutely a valid data point. You position would be that assist speed should be set by the slowest of the mamby-pamby riders and that is not a good idea. Can you imagine if Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari had to design their cars for the slowest of drivers. Very sad day that would be.

There simply is no "safety" data that indicates that limiting assist speeds on ebikes is saving lives so it's just making my commute more time consuming.
Yeah there has been numerous debate over speed limit among politicians and traffic engineers.

If you want to eliminate traffic accident death, lower the speed limit to 5 mph, and mandate 5 mph governer on every car and motorcycle. We will see traffic death close to zero.

However, realistically, in order for cars to be useful, they need to go fast.

The debate is, what should the speed limit be? In North America, we have this notion of "speed kills" so slower the speed limit = safer.

If this hypothrsis is true, it doesn't make sense Autobahn in Germany is one of the safest highway in the world.

Autobahn is definitely safer than American and Canadian highways. So we can't simply blame on speed.

Airplane is one of the safest transportation, Japan's bullet train had zero fatality since 1960s despite traveling 200+mph.

When flow of traffic is 85mph, artificially lowering the speed to 60mph by handing out speeding tickets do not contribute to safety. (search for Solomon curve)

My point is, even if ebike produce excess of 1000W, if used properly, it can be a safety feature.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I can confidently say that the assist speed limit was promoted by mid drive motor manufacturers in Europe to ensure their dominate market share would be protected. They know that mid drives have an advantage of being more efficient at slower speeds and better torque from the gear ratios inside the motor and even the bike's drive train when the gearing for slow speed climbing is being utilized by the rider.

But a 1000W hub drive ebike at 25+ mph / 45+ kph is every bit as efficient as a mid drive and since the torque is applied directly at the rear wheel the mid drive's advantage is gone...and hence sales advantages if the public just educates themselves. It's easier to use lobby pressure to set low assist speeds where mid drives have a performance advantage.

If I'm not mistaken Bosch is like the biggest funding contributor to People for Bikes in the US and it's no surprise they advocate the EU assist speed policies - they want to sell the same slow underpowered ebikes world wide.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Ok....back to the subject of the ebike in 2025....

Here's my take:

Doesn't matter really but a 1000W mid / 1200W geared hub / 2000W DD hub will all provide enough torque / power to hit assist speeds in the 35mph/55kph range which is just ideal for the product to remain an ebike and not require DOT level regulations because traditional bikes already achieve those speeds safely.

With that power the only use for drive system gearing is for cadence control for us humans to remained engaged. So I do like the idea of a single speed belt drive for best case simplicity. Sure adding transmission in a mid drive or something like the Pinion transmission on a hub drive would be great for keeping a rider engaged but at speeds over 28mph the rider really don't help much so I would prefer just a single speed belt drive.

Instead of having one large capacity battery the standard battery should be sized to allow most riders to do their daily commute needs so 50miles/75km is enough but have the option for a rear rack battery well above 1kwh.

No rear brake needed on a hub drive ebike if progressive regen is done right (we all should agree on that)

Keep the bike minimalist for riders that enjoy riding and let all the people that want integration for integration sake like GPS and being able to see motor and battery temps pay extra for that.

Tires are created that prove better suspension properties without impacting rolling resistance so the complexity and service requirements of mamby pamby suspensions can be done away with. With 2" or wider tires now that is really possible already but people have been marketed to believe they need suspension forks even when riding a street / urban mobility ebike.

Carbon becomes more and more popular on ebike but not because of it's weight savings but because the price keeps falling as fabrication techniques advance and structurally is just a better material than soft aluminum.

The bean counters are finally tossed out of the room and spokes are gone on ebike wheels as they really should be now. Magnesium wheels may be a bit more heavy but on an ebike who cares as they increase stability of the ebike at higher speeds.
 

Handlebars

Active Member
No, It's absolutely a valid data point.
But it was supposedly to be a basis, not a data point.
and not a motive. It was given by you as a motive:
to have a competitive advantage vs geared and DD hub drives
You position would be that assist speed should be set by the slowest of the mamby-pamby riders
Wrong. I said
unassisted riding at it's best seems to be the basis.
Best , not slowest.

There simply is no "safety" data that indicates that limiting assist speeds on ebikes is saving lives so it's just making my commute more time consuming.
First off, not having data doesn't mean one way or the other. It simply means no data.
What we DO have is fairly well established that high speed capable vehicles are licensed and the drivers are licensed and insurance becomes necessary.

That would ruin the freedom we have, of wonderful, cheap, efficient and available e-biking.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
No...what we do know is that pretty much any decent rider can hit and sustain a speed of 35mph or higher on traditional bike while going downhill. Professional riders will hit speeds upwards of 70mph but I would not suggest that unless you are in their skill class.

My point is that the assist speed DOES NOT limit the speed of an ebike in reality. It's not a data point .... it's just a fact.

I understand that higher speeds are more dangerous simply because the human body is fragile but the assist speed limit on ebikes was not established for safety reasons. You can drink that koolaid if you choose but I'm sorry I don't believe it for a second.
 

Handlebars

Active Member
No...what we do know is that pretty much any decent rider can hit and sustain a speed of 35mph or higher on traditional bike while going downhill.
Sure. So can an ebike rider.


Professional riders will hit speeds upwards of 70mph
Potentially a pro could do that on an 32km/hour limited ebike, too.

My point is that the assist speed DOES NOT limit the speed of an ebike in reality. It's not a data point .... it's just a fact.
Naturally. That is a fact. A fact is not a point. Facts may or may not support a point.

I understand that higher speeds are more dangerous simply because the human body is fragile but the assist speed limit on ebikes was not established for safety reasons. You can drink that koolaid if you choose but I'm sorry I don't believe it for a second.
I'm not arguing that manufacturers didn't want to have influence or didn't use influence.
I'm simply pointing out what is very very obvious. If you want to shake up things to get higher-speed governors allowed, then you're pushing into a different territory... and then along comes licensing and licence plates and insurance company.

End of the nice e-biking era of freedom.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Sure. So can an ebike rider.


Potentially a pro could do that on an 32km/hour limited ebike, too.

Naturally. That is a fact. A fact is not a point. Facts may or may not support a point.

I'm not arguing that manufacturers didn't want to have influence or didn't use influence.
I'm simply pointing out what is very very obvious. If you want to shake up things to get higher-speed governors allowed, then you're pushing into a different territory... and then along comes licensing and licence plates and insurance company.

End of the nice e-biking era of freedom.
You must work for DMV on an insurance company. You say that a fact is not a point as if that is something relevant to this discussion.

I pointed out that most riders can obtain a speed over 20mph as a reason why many riders do not understand limiting class 1 ebike assiste speed to 20mph. Somehow you got sidetracked into wanting to debate what a fact, point, data point, basis, and motive is when I sure everyone reading this thread comprehended the "information."
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
May I suggest you start your own thread simply titled Handlebars expounds freely on any topic that suits him whenever he pleases. Then no one could call you a troll. I would add it to my alerts.
I honestly don't know what to make of the exchange with Handlebars. I'm as guilty as anyone letting the forum wander into another debate on assist speed but I did put in my 2025 model ideas....which obviously assumes there will be no Class 1 restrictions by then (I just want an ebike to assist to speeds most bikers have ridden too which is not crazy thinking as some seem to imply).
 
But it was supposedly to be a basis, not a data point.
and not a motive. It was given by you as a motive:

Wrong. I said Best , not slowest.


First off, not having data doesn't mean one way or the other. It simply means no data.
What we DO have is fairly well established that high speed capable vehicles are licensed and the drivers are licensed and insurance becomes necessary.

That would ruin the freedom we have, of wonderful, cheap, efficient and available e-biking.
There is room for a middle class of ebike, not manual but not a motorcycle. Limited regulations and simpler licence. In most jurisdictions you can legally drive a golf cart on the road with minimal regulation. Or trailers that have license that lasts 5 years. I am sure there are other examples.
 
OK enough about speed and regulation. I began this post to start a conversation about hardware and design possibilities. What do you think needs to improve and/or is possible by 2025. There are other places for the regulation discussion but I would suggest getting active with your local politics for action. Now back to ebike technology please