Juiced Crosscurrent S vs Magnum metro plus (28 mph hub driven commuters).

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mark Peralta, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. Mark Peralta

    Mark Peralta Active Member

    For the same price of $1,999.00
    the Crooscurrent S advantages over Metro + are the following:
    - More powerful motor.
    - 17 ah (vs 13 ah) battery
    - 9 speed (vs 8 speed)
    - Torque and cadence sensor (vs cadence sensor only)

    The Metro +'s advantages over Crosscurrent are the following:
    - No waiting period, already available in stores.
    - Already had years of Research and development with it's partner German company, Leisger brand, and pressumed better overall dependability and reliability.
    - Suspension seat post (better than solid post).
    - Adjustable stem for the handlebar.
    - Sturdier rear rack.
    - Standard premium tire (Schwalbe Marathon 700 x 38 c/ Kevlar Lined, Reflective Sidewall Stripe)
    HUB DRIVE.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017


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  3. Captain Slow

    Captain Slow New Member

    I really like the Crosscurrent S and I'm not familiar with the Magnum. So I'll just offer my 2 cents about pros and cons. I actually think an 8 speed cassette might be a pro over 9 speed cassette. If you're using the motor, you don't need nearly as many gears and as the industry has added gears to the rear cassette they have not made the spacing at the rear wheel wider, so the gears get narrower. That means a 9 speed will wear out faster than an 8 speed. Way back in the day 5 speed cassettes lasted a really long time. Today with 10 speed cassettes they need to be replaced relatively frequently.

    I'm not sure I'd agree a suspension seat post is better.

    Of course everyone has their own personal preferences. For me, on an electric bike I think a 5 or 6 speed cassette is preferable as it will last a lot longer and with the motor it's a lot easier to find a gear that will allow you to pedal at the cadence you want.
     
  4. Mark Peralta

    Mark Peralta Active Member

    Agreed on the 9 speed vs 8 speed, both have 32 teeth in the lowest gear and 11 teeth in the highest gear, so a 9 speed just adds to the rider's inconvenience of frequent shifting.

    On the suspension seat post, most of the time you will not notice the suspension in action until you need it the most. When you fail to notice a pothole and run over it, your lower back will be grateful that you have a suspension seat post, even if it is the cheap kind. Your rear tire will also have reduced risk of blowout since the seat post suspension will absorb most of the road impact.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  5. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    I was in the same boat as you. The only thing is that I wanted to purchase though a LBS vs mail order. I want support if I need it. I was seriously looking at the metro but couldn't find a dealer locally that had it in stock. But I got lucky and Sam at Electrical Bicycle Center (Fullerton Ca)had a few in stock! I test rode it and walked out the door. The thing I like is that it has both a torque sensor and a cadence sensor so you can really tune what kind of ride you want.

    I got a black one and it has a Matte Black paint finish... and am not sure how that will hold up in the long run...but we'll see. If you are going to get the CCS I would wait until plenty are in stock they've caught up with the back orders.... or try and find a local dealer with one in stock.
     
  6. Captain Slow

    Captain Slow New Member

    Put down a deposit on the CCS today. Hopefully will receive it in November.
     
  7. Mike's E-Bikes

    Mike's E-Bikes New Member

    It's fascinating to watch how many prospective ebike buyers are a) willing to wait so long for an unreleased and unproven product, b) so readily willing to buy an unproven product that will definitely go through many 'bugs' and fixes, c) so willing to be the 'guinea pig' for these firms and essentially do their 'R&D' for them, and d) willing to take a chance on a company that has essentially very little capital resources and could go under at any moment, with one wrong product move or significant safety issue. e-Bikes as a category are still largely an emerging technology, where OEM's are trying to figure out what exactly will sell on a consistent basis, and what price points will get this to be adopted by the masses. Buyers of these ebikes are becoming smarter and focusing more on proven products that at least have been out a few years, but I'm not so sure that the vendors introducing these products are paying enough attention to what's important to buyers, or the masses who would want to spend a couple thousand, or more often 3 to 4 thousand, and realizing that still is a heck of a lot of money for most people to consider spending on what is still 'two wheels' and pedaling. With more than 90 brands, and hundreds of 'models', at this juncture, I would anticipate a fairly big shake out in this industry during the next 2 to 3 years here in the US, where a lot of these firms introducing so many new models, simply find they can't get enough volume going to keep their doors open or keep that many models afloat. Sales are still only around a few hundred thousand here in the US, but the plethora of brands and models would suggest sales are in the millions of units here - which they are not even close to that. (and no, sales in China or Europe don't count, bc many of these vendors have entirely different models, for entirely different buyer preferences, IF they even sell into those markets at all.) And no, these ebikes will NEVER be like sales of microwave ovens, or anything like what the US has seen since the 1960's in the appliance industry. Fortunately the decision between two different ebike brands isn't 'life or death' and worse case is you blow a couple grand of disposable income on something that is likely to be worth more to one's health(if utilized often enough) than a $1000 iphone with a $1200 per year annual data/call/text contract.
     
    JRA likes this.
  8. Ravi Kempaiah

    Ravi Kempaiah Well-Known Member

    People go by the integrity and honesty of the company or the person behind the company. If someone has a proven track record of launching innovative products then one can safely bet on them.
    That's the same gut feeling/confidence behind large venture capitalist funding. When Tesla announced junk bonds few weeks ago for $1.5 Billion, people went ahead and bought $1.8 billion worth of bonds. Because, people believe in Elon Musk and his work ethics.

    Right from day 1, I am rooting for @Tora Harris because he has a track record that shows he is honest, has skills and drive to bring out some of the innovation that has already happened in China.
    Look at his Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tora_Harris

    An Olympian! and you can't get to that level with shady work ethics. It needs tremendous discipline and focus. Whatever Tora brings out, I am willing to give a try. I know he is willing to listen and support his product line.

    Coming back,
    He has done great stuff. His products are constantly evolving and the company is constantly growing. People talking crap about his product line are mostly fueled by jealousy and the fear of losing market share.
     
    Ann M. and vincent like this.
  9. Captain Slow

    Captain Slow New Member

    Wow, never knew that information about Tora. Very interesting to say the least!
     
    Ann M. likes this.
  10. Andy_in_CA

    Andy_in_CA Member

    Mike's Ebikes,

    Thanks for the overview but what is your point? Are you saying go with a tried and true big brand or try a little guy? I think most people understand the risks you state especially if they are on this site.

    I weighed all of those things and choose something I could buy at a LBS and get support. It also happened to be a smaller brand bike (Juiced). But I know the risks. In the mean time I am more active, enjoying riding and the new community that I've become apart of. I love that its a bit of the wild west, lots of innovation, lots of ideas.

    Personally, I am willing to go with an unproven brand because it gave me way better features at a much better price. Honestly I can't afford to buy a 3k bike, but I can for 1,800. I actually sold some camera gear and stuff I wasn't using to make it happen. If anything this intense competition will bring down the prices of the big guys and is healthy for the market place. And end of the day 1800 is still a lot of money and I want to make an informed decision which is why I think most people come to this site, because there is so much out there right now. And they want to feel good about what they buy.

    Thanks for your perspective.

    Andy
     
  11. Great Points you have made,

    I would say your gearing observation is only true with Mid-Drive Motor Applications. Also the difference in 9 speed vs 8 speed is only 0.3mm. While one could say their is a mechanical advantage to the 8 Speed being wider, 9 Speed is regarded as the most serviceable and best performing platform ever offered in the bike industry.

    Both Bikes are great,with a slight preference to the Magnum Metro because of units in circulation & customer satisfaction.
     
  12. Mark Peralta

    Mark Peralta Active Member

    I want to add to the qualifications of Tora Harris, he graduated from Princeton University in 2002 with a degree in mechanical and aerospace engineering. Aside from his engineering schooling, a highly disciplined Olympian with multiple awards, and a track record of successfully marketed internationally his prior product (the Juiced ODK U500), he is also directly involved in all stages of production, shipment, and after sales customer care, with hands on to all the details and R&D. He doesn't need to hire a bunch of intellectual (and expensive) people, and since he speaks Chinese, he also knows many manufacturing connections in China and Taiwan. With that remarkable talent, he is extremely capable of producing affordable but impressive ebikes.
    http://www.juicedbikes.com/about/
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    Ann M. and vincent like this.
  13. Captain Slow

    Captain Slow New Member

    Yes, I agree on the mid-drive comment. I obviously wasn't thinking when I made that comment.

    Didn't know that about 9 speed. That's interesting, I had never heard that before. Well I guess I've ordered a CCS now, so I'm glad to hear that about the 9 speed as I'm going to be commuting through winter on this bike so I'm sure the drive train will need frequent replacement. I'm guessing once a year or more.
     
  14. Mike's E-Bikes

    Mike's E-Bikes New Member

    Hope Tora and Juiced do well Ravi. (clearly wasn't knocking his product.) Just marveling at the buying decisions about emerging technology, and the risks people are willing to take. If they saw all the e-bikes that have been brought into me for repairs, many of these 'white labeled' and/or relatively young brands, they might have a different perspective or decision making process. I'll post some pictures later on of some interesting failures I've dealt with in terms of e-bike motors, and their internals. I too am a degreed mechanical engineer by the way, with more than 33 years in industrial manufacturing, at some very well known and major corporations, and have been involved in numerous emerging technology launches. I've been following and researching the e-bike industry since the late 90's. How long have you been involved in this industry ?
     
  15. jazz

    jazz Active Member

    I don't think many people are doubting Tora's skills and integrity. What is frustrating is a lack of communication at times, and clear and concise answers to direct questions.
     
  16. Mike's E-Bikes

    Mike's E-Bikes New Member

    You bring up a very good point. As someone who does repairs on these e-bikes, I can vouch for the difficulty and challenges of communications from a number of these E-Bike OEM's, and the lack of clear or concise responses when attempting to repair their products. It is very frustrating when you have to wait days for an answer, and worse when the response comes back very vague. Or they have to wait to speak with the factory in Asia, and their interpretations are incorrect due to the language disparities. Meanwhile, you've invested many hours, which as a dealer you do not get reimbursed for, and no customers would be willing to pay you anywhere close to what you have spent in time on the repair, and trouble-shooting. That just kills whatever little margin on the e-bikes that is offered. When it's a newly launched product where they have very little history, it becomes magnified, and quite often the OEM's will simply come back with 'we have never seen that before', acting like its either not happening or must be the 'customer's fault.' Well of course they can think that or say that...they haven't had their ebike out on the market very long, and haven't been through any complete product life cycle at all, to know whether its a manufacturing defect, a one off mistake, or an on-going quality issue. What's important for any emerging industry, is to get the products to be very reliable, focus on quality, and keep the issues down. Right now, any brave (or naive) dealers willing to take on these e-bikes, are having to 'eat' the costs of these issues, which is why the vast majority of regular bike shops know better than to deal with these e-bikes (just yet), and they are likely being quite wise, because they have dealt with new product launches over the years, and thus they are likely taking a more conservative wait and see approach. By the way, dealers have to cover the warranty costs of labor with most of these e-bike brands, where the e-bike OEM's typically only cover parts. But back to your point about communications, and being clear and concise, if the e-bike OEM is new to the business, and trying to ramp up quickly, striking a balance between revenues coming in, and covering his own costs of employees etc, and staying solvent, the thing that is likely to suffer the most is having enough time in the day, and expert employees with any seasoning in this business, to be able to handle all of the issues coming in for repairs and failures of the product. Even a 1% failure rate can be daunting, if you are selling these e-bikes across the country and selling thousands of them per year. Every time a new product is launched, it multiplies, because that is just how product launches are. There are always some bugs to be worked through. Its more challenging when you are contracting out, and don't actually own the manufacturing firm. You have to work through issues because humans, and processes, and manufacturing (especially if they are striving for low price points) are never perfect from day 1. Personally, I'd much rather see the industry be successful with fewer new models launched too quickly, and working extremely hard to make every new of these early adopter customers have a great experience from day 1, and for many months and years after their purchase. That is how an emerging industry grows successfully and it's products become mainstream. Evangelism can only go so far, and 'rooting' for someone, doesn't change the outcome of their product quality. The products have to perform, and dealers have to be able to make money and stay in business, not be inundated with repairs, or have to spend hours to resolve issues that occur with any piece of equipment that is mechanical or electrical as these e-bikes are. It sounds like you have experience with Juiced, and I personally don't have that so I can't speak for their communications. So I am just talking in general as to what I have seen, and offering a perspective that many new e-bike buyers don't have - they haven't dealt with many of these OEM's or dealt with repair issues. In fact, I would bet many buyers simply aren't set up to do their own repairs. You'd be amazed at how many regular bike buyers don't even have a set of tools, don't know how to do something as simple as putting on a chain or repairing a flat or installing a tire on a rim, and certainly would not be able to trouble-shoot any electronic or motor issue on a more complex technology such as an e-bike. So they are totally at the mercy of an E-Bike OEM, or a dealer.
     
    Ravi Kempaiah likes this.
  17. Ravi Kempaiah

    Ravi Kempaiah Well-Known Member

    Good to know. I am sure experience matters a lot. No doubt but the technology is moving so fast that unless you are in the heart of it, there is no way, you could predict the growth of the industry. If the industry folks were so careful and intuitive, then would not have let some random guy named Sondors to take over the market. They would have introduced a reliable $1K bike.
    Comparing Musk to Tora would be an extreme hyperbole but when Musk decided to jump into space industry market (SpaceX), all the pundits were like " hey man, we are here for 25 years and you think you can come and make a difference?"
    Guess what, Court has been learning about E-bikes for 5-6 years now. Tora started in 2009. It's not exactly the amount of time but rather how involved they are in the space.
    I don't think Juiced products are supremely well engineered products. They are good but there are better products out there. But, for the money, they offer a great value.

    I believe they are so swamped with work and orders, it becomes very difficult to provide answers to all the questions. They are not refusing to refund if someone cancels the order.

    Having seen both sides of the coin, I also mention that some customers take a very entitled approach. They are not willing to pay the premium but they want everything premium (product, service). If they want super quick response and service, they should get the bike from a local shop.

    I have been on active on some Electric car forums and when I look at people's responses here, it amuses me. Over there, people have spent $100,000 on a Model X and their falcon wing doors are stuck!

    bottom line, as long as the company is trustworthy and willing to work with you, there is not much to complain about. There is always an option of going to a Trek store or Specialized and get one today.
     
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  18. Ravi Kempaiah

    Ravi Kempaiah Well-Known Member

    I find that many OEM personnel are not competent enough. I agree with you.
    Most companies just get stuff made in China and package it nicely and add service component on top of it but very few people can sit and build a bike scratch.
    Even with companies like Bosch or Shimano. You ask the tech or the manager, how does the torque sensor function exactly? they don't know. They may throw in technical jargons but they are not engineers at heart. Somebody in Asia does it and the the market is facing lot of growing pains but as you said, it will shake out in a year or two when economies of scale ans standardization occur.
     
  19. Timpo

    Timpo New Member

  20. Mark Peralta

    Mark Peralta Active Member

    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

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