Police ebike in Russia

Timpo

Well-Known Member
#1
While police officers in the US are riding Giant or Specialized ebikes that are limited to 20mph or 28mph, Russian officers have something a bit more high performance.
Looks like they use this bike for Russian military as well.

Top Speed: 110km/h (68mph)
Range: 220 to 370kms (135 to 230 miles)
Power: 3000W nominal
Price: 300,000 Rubles ($4,582 @ today's rate)

http://inventorspot.com/articles/russias-army-police-will-soon-be-riding-tactical-electric-bikes
http://englishrussia.com/2014/12/03/russian-army-electric-bikes/

 

AHicks

Active Member
#2
To be honest, as I haven't looked into it, but struggle a bit with the concept of a 68mph bike with a range of 125 miles. That seems like kind of a stretch. From what I can see, it appears to be DD rear hub.

Gorgeous looking rig though!
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
#6
Those discs don’t seem big enough to stop that bike fast enough
I have a feeling that brake might do the job just fine.

That Russian police ebike weighs 130 lbs and does 68mph.
Yamaha WR250R weighs 295 lbs and goes 90mph.

and visually, Yamaha's brake isn't particularly big either.
 
#7
This is a rather timely subject for me. I'm a founding member of this organization:

http://ipmba.org/

History (start at the bottom of the page)
http://ipmba.org/about

I was a bike patrol officer in Dayton, Ohio and am now retired. I'm the one behind the Chief of Police (he is kneeling and I'm slightly to his left). Despite being retired I'm still involved with IPMBA and it's training programs. Currently, I'm involved with the E-bike committee that's developing additional training standards to pair with our other training programs. I was originally one of the first testers of E-bikes in LEO work, they were made by a company called Zap. They were crude, heavy and not very durable in any respect. I essentially wrote them off until last year at the IPMBA Conference in St Louis. I took a fresh look at what was out there, rode every brand/type being displayed and was impressed with how far these machines (and batteries) have come. So much so, not only am I doing research to help the organization, I'm considering buying a Giant Road-E+ Pro for my easy training days as it's hilly where I live.

I've found that LEO cycling can at the very least help mainstream cycling in that it offers tacit validation that bikes belong. Having drivers see bikes/E-bikes being used as tools helps gain acceptance and cooperation from other road users. IPMBA has yearly conferences and this year will be in Fort Worth TX; in 2020 the conference will return to Dayton, Ohio where I served for 26 years. I have a lot to learn about E-bikes and am hopeful I can be a source of information for those interested in bicycle skills and physical training as those are two subjects I'm more familiar with.

Allan
 

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Timpo

Well-Known Member
#8
This is a rather timely subject for me. I'm a founding member of this organization:

http://ipmba.org/

History (start at the bottom of the page)
http://ipmba.org/about

I was a bike patrol officer in Dayton, Ohio and am now retired. I'm the one behind the Chief of Police (he is kneeling and I'm slightly to his left). Despite being retired I'm still involved with IPMBA and it's training programs. Currently, I'm involved with the E-bike committee that's developing additional training standards to pair with our other training programs. I was originally one of the first testers of E-bikes in LEO work, they were made by a company called Zap. They were crude, heavy and not very durable in any respect. I essentially wrote them off until last year at the IPMBA Conference in St Louis. I took a fresh look at what was out there, rode every brand/type being displayed and was impressed with how far these machines (and batteries) have come. So much so, not only am I doing research to help the organization, I'm considering buying a Giant Road-E+ Pro for my easy training days as it's hilly where I live.

I've found that LEO cycling can at the very least help mainstream cycling in that it offers tacit validation that bikes belong. Having drivers see bikes/E-bikes being used as tools helps gain acceptance and cooperation from other road users. IPMBA has yearly conferences and this year will be in Fort Worth TX; in 2020 the conference will return to Dayton, Ohio where I served for 26 years. I have a lot to learn about E-bikes and am hopeful I can be a source of information for those interested in bicycle skills and physical training as those are two subjects I'm more familiar with.

Allan
As you probably know there are companies that make police specific ebikes.
In my opinion they're a bit too slow, especially Pedego.. 20mph for nearly $5,000 is pretty steep.

If I was a cop, I'd at least like something like Juiced HyperFat 1100, because I imagine officers can really use that extra power when they need to respond to an emergency call or whatever situation might be.

Pedego
https://www.pedegoelectricbikes.com/product/ridge-rider-patroller-edition/

Trek
https://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en_CA/...ountain-bikes/police/police-electric/p/22241/

Bulls
https://elvmotors.com/all-products/police-bulls-bosch
https://www.bullsebikes.com/2745-2/
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#9
Over the years I have queried bike police I have run across in my travels about their thoughts on using eBikes. I would have to say that most of them reacted less than positively with the biggest factor being that they thought they would be missing out on the exercise they get. I never really got into it with any of them just took their reactions and went on my way.

But with the emerging popularity of eBikes and the advances in technology in regards to their propulsion and battery systems becoming more reliable every year perhaps now with people like yourself Nomadmax, that are in a position to influence the powers that be via an association like the IPMBA, that will change. Ebikes make allot of sense in that they can better bear the burden of the equipment necessary to perform their function as a response vehicle which can add up to enough that makes a conventional bike unwieldy, albeit still useable. But in hot climates or hilly terrain an e assist would be a welcome addition, yet still provide the patrol person with exercise.

The ability to provide a more rapid response due to the assist would be another obvious benefit. I know from riding for years in an urban environment on assist bikes that getting from one side of town to the other is just as fast or faster than it can be in an auto especially if you use the bike paths/lanes/alley's etc. to your benefit.

The problem I see going forward is the price tags as shown above being in the $5k range for a police model bike. That seems a bit steep to me and might price the concept out of most cities/towns/communities budgets. Especially because only 1 bike and the infrastructure necessary to train an officer and maintain the bike also has to be included and most will require multiple units to be the most effective. At this time there are lot's of potentially serviceable options being imported here at half or less the cost and perhaps one of those entities will come forward or could be worked with to develop a suitable platform based on what the IPMBA decides it will require.

The one thing I would suggest is to look at including a throttle, which according to the Class laws being instituted would label it as a Class 2, because getting a bike up to speed is aided by that function. It doesn't preclude pedaling because the bike will still have PAS and that will be used 90% or more of the time.
 

Alex M

Active Member
#10
Other than the gal and the few accessories that is a pretty standard Alibaba offering that has been available there for several years: https://m.alibaba.com/amp/product/60824565966.html
This is just the first one I ran across...
Note that this one has a modest 500W motor, 35 mph speed and 38 miles range.

A lot depends on the battery, but... but... I didn't notice in these or Russian specs the magic word "AT" between "X miles" and "Y mph".
And, as usual with ebikes, there is a question of how much muscle input was included into these numbers (or wasn't).
 
#11
Thanks for the replies Timpo, JRA and Alex M

Right now Trek seems to have the leg up on everyone else, mainly because they've already been in the police bike business longer than anyone else (who's still standing). That's impressive when you consider that police bike sales are minuscule. However, bike manufacturers realize that tacit product validation is a very real thing. Quite literally, sales in the Dayton area of the particular brand of bikes we were using at the time were always better. We changed brands, sales shifted and not just on mountain bikes. That said, those sales were in the "bread and butter" sector and not high end sales (for a brand bike shop). The higher end customers had their own and probably correct, ideas of what they needed as opposed to relying on "If it's good enough for the Dayton Police, it has to be good enough for me".

What I know now that I didn't know before. Mid-drives seem to handle the best for our purposes, both in power application and weight balance. Police/EMS/Public Safety bikes are already rear end heavy, especially EMS. Hub drive set ups make rear wheel bias and damage more pronounced. In addition, the hub drive can't take advantage of the bike's gearing to conserve power. Flat tire repair is easier with a mid drive as well. There seems to be another difference (at least to me) between hub drive and mid-drive; hub drives seem to "push" the bike and mid drives seem to "propel" the bike as one would with the pedals. That might not make sense and it could be my imagination as well. At the very least, a police E-bike needs a walk button so the bike can be propelled up steps or over obstacles too large to ride over; say for instance pushing the bike up several flights of steps. A throttle is nice as well but not mandatory in my book.

The price of the bikes are up there compared to a completely pedal operated bike, BUT, there are real life cost considerations that can make the 5K per unit a bargain. In the case of rapid response to a citizen injury, house fire, etc the E-bike offers the responder the opportunity to arrive with all their anaerobic strength and in the best possible position to help successfully, regardless of responder age or fitness level. Saving a life is ALWAYS worth the money. The other area of E-bike "cost effectiveness" is suspect contact and apprehension. Having all (or mostly all) of one's physical abilities when the chase draws to a close and you go hands on can save a violent suspect's life in that an officer who is still fresh can more likely overcome the suspect in lieu of having to rely on deadly force to save their own life because of strength differentials. Despite what many people think, having to take a life is the 2nd to last thing you want to happen; the last thing is being killed and not being able to perform your protective duties. When you pinned on that badge, you gave up your right to give up. Add to all that, just one "wrongful death" suit settlement can buy a lot of E-bikes, even if the officer was completely justified.

We have many areas in Dayton that have been blocked off with brick and steel gates that allow limited car access to reduce crime. In these neighborhoods, bikes can beat cars to the scene easily. Responding officers who are also on E-bikes can assist much faster than officers in cars and be relatively just as fresh. The big thing about cost isn't what administrators consider to be excessive spending, it's what the tax payers believe is excessive or wasteful. When it comes to the cost of anything in police work, the tax payer drives the buggy, as they should.

I said all that to say this, yes E-bikes can be expensive, but sometimes the cost of NOT having something can be much higher.
 
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AHicks

Active Member
#12
I think the logic behind e-bikes for police work is solid w/little downside. I just question some of the logic used to justify spending 3 times (or more) the cost of some of the more popular bikes. It DOES NOT need to be the best available at any price. It DOES need to be servicable, and should be justifiable on a bucks spent for bang received basis. Also, if you're going to buy them, you need to get some commitment they're actually going to get used. Not just something to have sitting around only to come out for parade duty.....

It's like the local sheriff's marine department trying to justify the cost of owning/maintaining a fleet of 40 boats, when there are only 20 officers.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
#13
Thanks for the replies Timpo, JRA and Alex M

Right now Trek seems to have the leg up on everyone else, mainly because they've already been in the police bike business longer than anyone else (who's still standing). That's impressive when you consider that police bike sales are minuscule. However, bike manufacturers realize that tacit product validation is a very real thing. Quite literally, sales in the Dayton area of the particular brand of bikes we were using at the time were always better. We changed brands, sales shifted and not just on mountain bikes. That said, those sales were in the "bread and butter" sector and not high end sales (for a brand bike shop). The higher end customers had their own and probably correct, ideas of what they needed as opposed to relying on "If it's good enough for the Dayton Police, it has to be good enough for me".

What I know now that I didn't know before. Mid-drives seem to handle the best for our purposes, both in power application and weight balance. Police/EMS/Public Safety bikes are already rear end heavy, especially EMS. Hub drive set ups make rear wheel bias and damage more pronounced. In addition, the hub drive can't take advantage of the bike's gearing to conserve power. Flat tire repair is easier with a mid drive as well. There seems to be another difference (at least to me) between hub drive and mid-drive; hub drives seem to "push" the bike and mid drives seem to "propel" the bike as one would with the pedals. That might not make sense and it could be my imagination as well. At the very least, a police E-bike needs a walk button so the bike can be propelled up steps or over obstacles too large to ride over; say for instance pushing the bike up several flights of steps. A throttle is nice as well but not mandatory in my book.

The price of the bikes are up there compared to a completely pedal operated bike, BUT, there are real life cost considerations that can make the 5K per unit a bargain. In the case of rapid response to a citizen injury, house fire, etc the E-bike offers the responder the opportunity to arrive with all their anaerobic strength and in the best possible position to help successfully, regardless of responder age or fitness level. Saving a life is ALWAYS worth the money. The other area of E-bike "cost effectiveness" is suspect contact and apprehension. Having all (or mostly all) of one's physical abilities when the chase draws to a close and you go hands on can save a violent suspect's life in that an officer who is still fresh can more likely overcome the suspect in lieu of having to rely on deadly force to save their own life because of strength differentials. Despite what many people think, having to take a life is the 2nd to last thing you want to happen; the last thing is being killed and not being able to perform your protective duties. When you pinned on that badge, you gave up your right to give up. Add to all that, just one "wrongful death" suit settlement can buy a lot of E-bikes, even if the officer was completely justified.

We have many areas in Dayton that have been blocked off with brick and steel gates that allow limited car access to reduce crime. In these neighborhoods, bikes can beat cars to the scene easily. Responding officers who are also on E-bikes can assist much faster than officers in cars and be relatively just as fresh. The big thing about cost isn't what administrators consider to be excessive spending, it's what the tax payers believe is excessive or wasteful. When it comes to the cost of anything in police work, the tax payer drives the buggy, as they should.

I said all that to say this, yes E-bikes can be expensive, but sometimes the cost of NOT having something can be much higher.
I didn't think about how rear heavy police bikes can be. Yea I guess that makes sense to have mid drive since rear hub drive will make it even worse.

Have you ever looked into the FLX Blade? (I don't know how reliable FLX is, never dealt with them)
But the Blade can go up to 40mph (!:eek:) at full assist mode and that kind of power will be useful when officers in pursuit or responding to an emergency call where long steep hill to climb in front. Obviously I know nothing about police bikes but considering they have to haul all the equipment, that extra power might become useful.
They're advertising the FLX Blade as $3,999 but they might do a fleet deal? I don't know.

@28:25 in this video, it's showing how quick the bike can go.
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#14
"Mid-drives seem to handle the best for our purposes, both in power application and weight balance."

I agree with you that a mid-drive would work the best for LE purposes. However there are integrated mid drive systems available that are as solid and dependable as those used by Trek etc. that can be sourced for much less money. Two of the factors being that they can operate at 48v, vs. 36v and can include a throttle which I really feel would be useful in the field to help get the bikes as equipped up to speed quickly and still have the ability to let the pedaling power do the assist.

Another suggestion would be to lose the single rack top bag and go with panniers to help lower the weight and make it easier to keep things in order as well as get access via being easily removable.
 
#15
Timpo and JRA

I had not seen the FLX blade before, that was a good review. The Touring model sounds like it would best be adapted to public safety work. As far as cost for new technology, the best way to bring in something like this is one or two at a time. That way if it doesn't work out, the rest of the remaining fleet is still viable.

Dayton was one of the first big bike patrols in the mid west. We did/do everything by bike except interstate crash investigation and prisoner transport. Although I did walk a few arrestees to jail when within a block or so. Many departments do use panniers in lieu of or in conjuction with top bags for the racks. Some of the panniers have kevlar panels in them to use as cover in a shooting incident. Stuff does tend to get a little wetter in them as opposed to the top bag. EMS people just about have to use panniers because of the volume and weight that they carry.

JRA
Can you tell me about the 48 v 36 volt thing and what an integrated mid drive is? The throttle is helpful and I'd be for it but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if it didn't. When buying for a fleet setting you have to take some things into consideration. I can absolutely guarantee there would be complaints of "poor battery life" on every unit that had a throttle because cops can sometimes be a lazy bunch. That throttle would get more use than the pedals. The one thing that's absolutely necessary is a brake lever switch that kills power to the motor. A lot of what we do is close quarters and is accomplished with very low speed handling while pedaling, using the rear brake; a rolling track stand if you will.

Here's a blast from the past. Late 80s, early 90s on Raleigh Technium MTBs. Never mind the converted uniform pants to shorts and the corresponding Reno 911 look ;)
 

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JRA

Well-Known Member
#16
Basically the 36v system has gotten popular due to the 250w restrictions placed by the EU on eBikes. Given that V x A = W a 36v x 10A = 360w which is over the restriction but in actuality most use a 15A controller so in fact are more like 540w. This is mainly just gotten away with somehow mostly due to the ambiguity of the law as written.

Here in the US our legal limit of 750w and in some states 1000w is more efficiently achieved by using a 48v system with a 15A controller equaling 720w. In order for a 36v system to be the same it would have to operate at 20A which could cause issues with getting hotter than the 48v @ 15A. Not that the bikes in question will be at full A all the time but in general for heavier type bikes or riders the higher voltage battery at a lower A rating will run more efficiently. If you haven't enrolled in the eBike school yet here is a link that helps to explain: http://www.ebikeschool.com/much-power-electric-bicycle-need/

Pretty much all eBikes have a brake sensor cutoff built in. But as far as a throttle goes I agree that you might get some that abuse it but with a mid drive it is a lot harder to do so than a hub drive and they can also be set so that they are high torque/low speed, say up to 10mph which just as I say helps getting a heavy bike up on step while the operator gets their feet going to allow for the PAS to take over.

A shop owner near me sourced mid drive bikes last season from a Chinese supplier with 48v/15A with 12ah (576wh) batteries, fenders and lights with 27.5 2.2" tires that would make great cop bikes and sold them all for $1800 ea. with a good profit margin. He is making another order and specing them with a solid mount rear rack and optional front platform rack as well. I was particularly impressed with the mid drive system as it was silent, had an excellent torque assist and as low a Q factor as any of the big brands. So far it has proven to be bomb proof also. I just feel that keeping the cost low will help to get more bikes out into the system and as I keep alluding to it would benefit the IPMBA to have as much input as possible into their design parameters.
 
#17
Thanks for the link JRA, I'll explore it further. The 48 vs 36v thing makes sense now. I'll do some more research as the conference in Fort Worth is coming up pretty quick. I'll have to see if I can find a list of the E-bike vendors that will be attending.

As far labeling nomenclature. Is there a difference between mid drive and "integrated" mid drive? I see that most mid drives have a motor basically hanging from the frame and some mid drive motors are actually contained in a large diameter BB shell (for lack of a better term). Is that the difference; one is a bolt on affair and the other is contained in a structural component of the frame itself? Or are they both considered integrated mid drives?
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
#18
"Is that the difference; one is a bolt on affair and the other is contained in a structural component of the frame itself?"

Yes, the bolt on ones are generally associated with the DIY market and the integrated ones are frame specific needing a mounting plate integrated into the frame and that is what the bike I mentioned had however it was a Chinese manufacturer's model, not a Bosch etc..