Spare battery costs

#41
Do you have any numbers to backup your claim ?

And what kind of "incredible" quality control you can have on batteries that you purchase from Samsung and spot welding them ?

If you have information I will be happy to listen.
Actually I have nothing to prove. I build my own and sell complete as well. I’m well aware of costs and options.
 

Johnny

Active Member
#42
Actually I have nothing to prove. I build my own and sell complete as well. I’m well aware of costs and options.

Now maybe there is something (unlikely in this case) that I am missing and I welcome anyone who would point that out. It is not hard to design or build batteries and the costs can easily be calculated.

If you don't like to share any information maybe you should refrain yourself from making claims such as "incredible" quality control.
 
#43
Someday I hope I can be an expert too.

I know the reseller of Bosch rejected packs and cells. Bosch does not mess about and fix and sell, they reject and the cells go to a secondary market. The one I use is in the EU.

Next, calculate the cost of supplies and building tools. AND factor the average Joe trying to build is likely completely out of their league. I count myself as one who almost bit off more than he can chew. Buy the Kapton tape, nickel strip (careful you don't get ripped off and get nickel coated), cells, BMS($12-$150), fish paper, welder, soldering tools, decent multimeter... and more. Sure I can build a battery for less but we WERE on about resellers and OEM's.

Thirdly, I'm struggling to find how posters take comments and experiences of others as actions that need to be confronted and challenged.

AS ALWAYS YMMV
 

Dmitri

Active Member
#44
You know, we used to have this same thing with power banks. Used to be the case that you'd simply go out and purchase a power bank for a rather crazy sum of money. Then the Chinese got in the game, but they typically cheat by putting in elements which are either already used or are lower capacity by default. So the final stroke was that you can now buy power bank enclosures (e.g., something like this) and then buy genuine batteries from places like NKON (reminder: do not buy batteries from China) and you have a powerbank for literally peanuts. The last one I built houses eight 18650 elements (huge capacity) and the enclosure itself cost $3 (you might want to spend a little more, since the $3 enclosure is not the highest quality... but it works).

Ebike manufacturers know the game is up, especially now that we have kits like Vruzend that let you build batteries without any soldering (you're limited by about 20A draw, but that's plenty for legal pedelecs anyway), so they build not just 'incredible' quality of batteries (well, they can, given their margins) but also protection so you cannot build your own.

So if you're unhappy with the options as they are right now, some options include the following:
  • Re-celling exhausted battery packs. You can either do it yourself or have it done professionally. From what I understand, battery packs are glued up to be weatherproof or whatnot, and you need to obviously do some de-soldering and re-soldering. Apart from that, they use ordinary 18650 cells, no magic there.
  • Buying Yamaha-driven bikes. Apart from the fact my opinion that Yamaha motors are superior to Bosch, there's a small matter of the battery protocol already being reverse-engineered. This means you can find both third-party batteries (which should work, but you're in the blind regarding what cells they use) as well as an ability to use your own batteries either in parallel (must start at 36±½V) or in lieu (requires a dongle).
  • Buying Bafang or other motors that are not locked out with proprietary firmware.
Personally I'm now in the process of getting into the making of my own 18650 battery packs (both with Vruzend and spot welding). It's a fun hobby, not really that complicated, and provided you are really careful you can have enough power not just for your ebike, but also the nice extras like powerful lights, proper USB power (not the sad single 500mA output you get from your bike computer), heated grips and other fun stuff.
 
#46
I'd like to hear what Rob12013 , the original poster, thinks about his batteries today. I would suspect they're working fine.

Many 18650 cells are made in China though. If they're done by Samsung or LG in their chinese plants, they're fine.
Thanks Harry! You always have a common sense response and approach!
 

Dmitri

Active Member
#47
Chinese-made cells are fine so long as they are branded as LG, Samsung etc. and are genuine. But when you see SureFire, LiitoKaala and similar brands, those are not geniune cells, they are at best rebranded and at worst bad imitations/used cells with lower capacities. Those you should stay away from.
 
#48
Chinese-made cells are fine so long as they are branded as LG, Samsung etc. and are genuine. But when you see SureFire, LiitoKaala and similar brands, those are not geniune cells, they are at best rebranded and at worst bad imitations/used cells with lower capacities. Those you should stay away from.
There are a few China made batteries that are every bit as good, but as a generalization you are correct. The high-end China batts are rarely if ever seen in the open marketplace. Somewhere in my notes, I have the manufacturers name....looking...
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
#49
Depending on where you live, this Yamaha clone battery might not be worth it. I've found originals that were only around 100 euros more expensive than the clones. It all depends how much VAT you're going to pay and at what time of year you purchase. Combine a favourable VAT with an end of year sale, and you've got a pretty good deal. Not entirely cheap, but you'll have some peace of mind. E-bikes are complicated enough, I personally don't want to waste time tinkering with batteries. At 388 euros for 468Wh, I don't think the OP has made such a good deal. That price isn't really anything special. The original 500Wh would cost me about 540 euros right now (including shipping), but I've seen cheaper deals before Xmas week where it would have cost me 485. I don't pay the 19% VAT. Instead I pay 7.7%. Given that I use an e-bike for transportation, I don't see the point of risking the clone to save some 100 euros.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
#50
We're now reaching yet another frontier in ebike battery kits from China. Remember I mentioned previously that you can buy power bank enclosures? Well guess what, you can now buy ebike enclosures like this: basically ebike battery cases that have everything you need except the batteries!

So let's do the math. The case is $68 for a 36V battery with a BMS. 70 cells at $4 each is $280. So, for $350, you are getting a whopping 900Wh (!) battery that can be re-celled at home!
 

Dmitri

Active Member
#52
Will this work for any battery? Like Shimano?
No, of course not. Bike makers aren't stupid, they've locked in consumers so they cannot use 3rd-party batteries.
Will work for Yamaha, in my case, because I have magic widgets to make this possible.
 
#53
We're now reaching yet another frontier in ebike battery kits from China. Remember I mentioned previously that you can buy power bank enclosures? Well guess what, you can now buy ebike enclosures like this: basically ebike battery cases that have everything you need except the batteries!

So let's do the math. The case is $68 for a 36V battery with a BMS. 70 cells at $4 each is $280. So, for $350, you are getting a whopping 900Wh (!) battery that can be re-celled at home!
I’ve been at this for 3 years. Caveat emptor. Lots of pitfalls and opportunities for disasters. I’m doing another two in shark pack cases since Grin came out the acontroller that fits in the base for the shark battery. But by the time all the pieces, parts, cells, proper tape, original cells are added up...well it’s damn close to buying a battery with a one year warranty, builtby a professional. Your math is fuzzy! VVBG

For $350 you still have a brick of parts...
 
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#54
No, of course not. Bike makers aren't stupid, they've locked in consumers so they cannot use 3rd-party batteries.
Will work for Yamaha, in my case, because I have magic widgets to make this possible.
The single biggest reason I don’t own a Bosch and the like. The conveniences ofintegratedsystems become a nuisance for a DIY builder, or even a fella that wants to learn and do his/her own maintenance. As angry asi get with Bafangandtheirlouy support, I hang in because they’re powerful and repairable. By me.

<edit> and I feel deprived not being able to objectively discuss a range of mid drives. I imagine, or would think there’d be a collection of hacks?
 
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Dmitri

Active Member
#55
The single biggest reason I don’t own a Bosch and the like. The conveniences ofintegratedsystems become a nuisance for a DIY builder, or even a fella that wants to learn and do his/her own maintenance. As angry asi get with Bafangandtheirlouy support, I hang in because they’re powerful and repairable. By me.

<edit> and I feel deprived not being able to objectively discuss a range of mid drives. I imagine, or would think there’d be a collection of hacks?
Well, people on Pedelecforum (German) and Endless Sphere have been reverse-engineering the drives with varying successes. Yamaha got reverse-engineered which is why we now have third-party batteries and various battery hacks.

There are two issues with commercial mid-drives I see: one is they are not powerful enough even when derestricted; they are OK for going 50kph on flat terrain, but they cannot go at that speed up an incline. Second issue, and this is something I struggle with is that 500Wh, even 1kWh, is insufficient for me on very long rides. I need a lot more energy, which is why I typically pack an extra 400Wh in addition to my 1kWh DualBattery setup. I wish I could just buy a frame+motor and fill everything in later.

That said, commercial mid-drives are better than Bafang. They have a combination torque/speed/cadence sensor, they integrate the controller in the motor, they fit nicely into the frame without sticking out.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
#56
So let's do the math. The case is $68 for a 36V battery with a BMS. 70 cells at $4 each is $280. So, for $350, you are getting a whopping 900Wh (!) battery that can be re-celled at home!
Everything you need except nickel strips ($50 USD?) and a spot welder ($150-200) . Thomas might have a couple of those.

The contactless systems, in my opinion, are problematic and need the kind of tweaking/tightening that most people cannot tolerate. You just want to take a battery and ride with it.

Best battery I own was made by a guy in Florida. It was probably a labor of love, or he had a bunch of GA cells to use up. He probably didn't even clear 50 dollars for the $250 he charged me. He also had a contactless system, that went nowhere, but mine was spot welded. I still had to shrink wrap myself, but that allowed me to encase it in rubber.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
#58
I stole a length of rubber out of the back of my wife's kitchen cabinets.* No one will ever know. Used heavy shrink wrap over it. It's hard to buy that shrink wrap in the US economically. Shipping costs more than the wrap. I happened to order it when I bought my last motor.

*Just kidding. It's something made by rubber maid used to line tool cabinets and I had a roll of it
 

indianajo

Well-Known Member
#59
One of the few things I bought from ***** via ali, was a roll of 800 mm shrink wrap. It came in be snail mail, and was real. Got other things to fix than the two dead LiFePO4 batteries, probably dump them in the bin at HD some time.
 
#60
I'd like to hear what Rob12013 , the original poster, thinks about his batteries today. I would suspect they're working fine.

Many 18650 cells are made in China though. If they're done by Samsung or LG in their chinese plants, they're fine.
Hi, Just to let you all know both batteries (400wh Yamaha and the 500wh aftermarket one) are indeed working fine - I've only covered approx 500 miles on each.
The only difference between them as far as I can tell is the consistent and expected 25% further the 500 will last.
So overall and up to this point I'm very happy I opted for the MUCH cheaper aftermarket battery.