Stop hating ebikes

vincent

Well-Known Member
not too worried ann

being 70% deaf it is pretty easy for me to tune people out when i want lol
that being said i will stick up for ebikes anytime i feel it is needed

agree i wont be in many riding situations where this will be an issue, mainly havent been pleased with the overall regular bike shop experiences i have had

with me seeing clients all day everyone i talk to is very curious and interested in the bikes , nobody seems to know they exist

but have a friend who is pretty serious in mtn biking and she says a lot of these guys are rabid about the ebikes, she doesnt care one wit
i have read a few threads on some mtn biking forums and some people do seem to be over the top about it

of course that is true of people in general about all kinds of topics
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
The value of an ebike? The value of biking at all?

Sometimes we just want to do it faster for our own priorities. Commute to work or get to the store. Sometimes we may be able and fit, but just want to climb the mountain and have fun going fast and less tired. When the line crosses from "I need an ebike in order to bike normally" to "I want an ebike to bike abnormally (like blow past roadies up a mountain), yes, it is an element of cheat as we enjoy the benefits of biking with less effort.

Physically, it cheats our conditioning. Bike a mountain 7 times on an ebike vs 7 times on any non ebike and I would bet your body is better conditioned from the second. I'm ok with that because all our efforts to bike around these many miles are fairly meaningless in the grand scheme of human history. Humans are already half crazy to wear tight lycra clothing, spend a whole day and joules of energy to bike up a mountain, do all that work, and produce nothing. Pure recreation and peace of mind. Our founding fathers would think of us very strange.

No it does not cheat your conditioning. Only YOU can do that. If conditioning was simply a matter of doing more work you would be right. But in actuality, how we recover from the 1st, 2nd and 3d time up the mountain are GREATLY going to impact how hard we work and how much benefit we get out of trips 4-7.
If the work is harder than your capacity to handle it, you can shred muscles ( break down from overwork) breaking down the fibers that then grow back stronger. In 48hrs or longer. Do those kinds of rides every day and you'll be much weaker on Ride 7 than you were on ride 1.
With E assist helping you don't HAVE to overwork those muscles so badly and can recover much faster and do much more work the next day, and the next, and the next.....
THAT is why you can stay in AS GOOD A CONDITION boosted as unboosted. Last year I never lost a day to dead legs or overall tiredness that often happens the day (days) after a REALLY hard effort.
More work is not always better and the older you get the more that bears out.
 

mamerc

Member
I took a nice ride with the guys at work for a Sunday Morning ride, To prove we can all get along I peddled 95 percent of the ride, seemed silly to grunt at 3 mph but hey, its an EBike... every so often, my bikes motor could be heard because I CAN!!....fun ride...best part?...the RIDE DOWN!!!!!
 
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JoePah

Well-Known Member
I think people don't really care about ebikes unless you're trying to use the mountain bike trails or ride in a paced group.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
Yay to you @mamerc for being proactive! We've had to do this several times with various city officials in Austin. It really makes a difference when they see the creature :) that's being maligned.
Agreed!! Well done!! it's hands on, friendly, showing people what's really going on that can change things the way we want.
We all need to try to take positive actions just like this.
Even if we'll never use that service ourselves. ;)
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
I think people don't really care about ebikes unless you're trying to use the mountain bike trails or ride in a paced group.
Slippery slope. ALL our local paved bike trails (70 miles and growing) have now posted (This year) No Motorized Vehicles all over the trailheads. The local offroad trails at one of the parks says "NO EBIKES"!!! at the trailhead. It's already becoming a "seems like a negative" thing to a lot of people that have never, nor will ever try one.
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
Well I hate to say this, but I don't know if ebikes on single track trails is such a good idea.. I rode the trails this weekend on my Fuji hardtail, Doubt that I ever went over 15 mph and used my feet to feel my speed and traction. At no point did I think having an eBike would've been a help to me. I was doing 5-10 mph trying to stay on the single track washouts and curves and not needing any more help!

If you put someone who isn't in very good physical shape and who isn't a skilled mountain biker on a electric mountain bike, they will have 5x human power immediately available to them.. I can see these riders going way too fast above their skill set and crashing or worse going off course and into the woods.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
Well I hate to say this, but I don't know if ebikes on single track trails is such a good idea.. I rode the trails this weekend on my Fuji hardtail, Doubt that I ever went over 15 mph and used my feet to feel my speed and traction. At no point did I think having an eBike would've been a help to me. I was doing 5-10 mph trying to stay on the single track washouts and curves and not needing any more help!

If you put someone who isn't in very good physical shape and who isn't a skilled mountain biker on a electric mountain bike, they will have 5x human power immediately available to them.. I can see these riders going way too fast above their skill set and crashing or worse going off course and into the woods.
No different than putting someone on a bike on the road with cars going 30mph that may or may not have any clue how to handle those speeds.
Yet around here, trails are flat and open and it's No problem using or enjoying an ebike or going 15mph in many places.
It's all relative and what's ok here may dang well not work there.
The way it's gonna be I'm afraid.

PS - Not many if any assists provide x5 human power. None of mine (4) have more than x3 at the highest setting. Still no denying that is a lot of power relative to human power alone.
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
No different than putting someone on a bike on the road with cars going 30mph that may or may not have any clue how to handle those speeds.
Yet around here, trails are flat and open and it's No problem using or enjoying an ebike or going 15mph in many places.
It's all relative and what's ok here may dang well not work there.
The way it's gonna be I'm afraid.

PS - Not many if any assists provide x5 human power. None of mine (4) have more than x3 at the highest setting. Still no denying that is a lot of power relative to human power alone.
Road bike riding doesn't have nearly the technical challenges, obstructions and tight turns that mountain biking does.. Road bike is riding in a straight line 90% of the time and you can see the potential dangers well in advance. Pedaling at 15 mph or ebiking at 25 mph is a difference that is safe and easy to adjust to.

Most out of shape riders are good for maybe 150 watts, whereas a good ebike could have 600 watts and all the torque right there if they want it.

Don't want to see people get hurt when they're just out to have a good time.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
I think you are minimizing the potential and very real problems on road. And on paved trails. The 2 crashes I've heard about locally both involved excessive speed and the E biker running into other bikers running wide on a tight turn. That is what got the trail signage in short order. Of course a tight trail is slower. But next to nobody here is prepared for a blowout or smacking a big pothole at 28mph. Bike tires aren't necessarily built for heavy loads AND high speeds. (some are) Braking and handling gets extremely sensitive at 30+.
Just because we ride a lot does NOT mean we are ready/prepared for emergency handling/braking at very high speeds with much longer braking distances.
It's not about the open areas with lots of time to scan to see everthing happening.
It's when things suddenly happen in front of you that you didn't have time to plan for.
You slide at LONG way at 30mph and you're aware of that fact as it's happening, losing flesh with each second. ;) (been there, done that, have the scars to show)
In motorcycling we say "dress for the crash, not the ride". Cuz the crash is probably inevitable if you ride enough.
Yet other than wearing a helmet, who here is dressing for a 30mph crash? PS - in a bike crash youi're often tangled with the bike so the 50+lbs is relevent here too.
My Stromer ST1 was a 28mph bike and easily peddled to 32+. Great fun. Scary too.
Won't be chipping the Haibike, 20mph is plenty for ME. (Paved trails only, NOT a road rider, NOT talking about you commuters that need to get to work, etc etc)
This aint' video games..... :) JMO
 
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JoePah

Well-Known Member
There is just no comparison to the skills needed to ride a bike in a straight line compared to single tracks. The number of bike decisions and turns per minute are just too numerous for an marginal out of shape rider on a single track or bike trail.

And while road crashes are indeed painful, it is nothing compared to going offtrail at 20 mph and into a tree.. Not going to walk away from that.

If there was a way to regulate the amount of power inexperienced riders can have that would be great.. but there are no rules out there, and even if there were there would be no one to enforce them.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
I think you are minimizing the potential and very real problems on road. And on paved trails. The 2 crashes I've heard about locally both involved excessive speed and the E biker running into other bikers running wide on a tight turn. That is what got the trail signage in short order. Of course a tight trail is slower. But next to nobody here is prepared for a blowout or smacking a big pothole at 28mph. Bike tires aren't necessarily built for heavy loads AND high speeds. (some are) Braking gets extremely sensitive at 30+.
It's not about the open areas with lots of time to scan to see everthing happening.
It's when things suddenly happen in front of you that you didn't have time to plan for.
You slide at LONG way at 30mph and you're aware of that fact as it's happening, losing flesh with each second. ;) (been there, done that, have the scars to show)
In motorcycling we say "dress for the crash, not the ride". Cuz the crash is probably inevitable if you ride enough.
Yet other than wearing a helmet, who here is dressing for a 30mph crash? PS - in a bike crash youi're often tangled with the bike so the 50+lbs is relevent here too.
My Stromer ST1 was a 28mph bike and easily peddled to 32+. Great fun. Scary too.
This aint' video games..... :)
There is just no comparison to the skills needed to ride a bike in a straight line compared to single tracks. The number of bike decisions and turns per minute are just too numerous for an marginal out of shape rider on a single track or bike trail.

And while road crashes are indeed painful, it is nothing compared to going offtrail at 20 mph and into a tree.. Not going to walk away from that.

If there was a way to regulate the amount of power inexperienced riders can have that would be great.. but there are no rules out there, and even if there were there would be no one to enforce them.

Ok, Joe, you win.
Nobody ever gets killed on the street. Silly me.
How skilled you must be to survive those intense life and death struggles with a dirt mound.
SOME of us can see that every challenge is unique and potentially dangerous.
Some can't. ;)

PS - Been riding off road motorcycles for almost 50 years. Loving offoad biking now.
Wanna race. :)

PSS - Watch out that pothole doesn't throw you under that delivery truck over the next rise.....I guess it wouldn't be worse crashing into a tree at 10mph!!!
 

Mtnm

Active Member
Well I hate to say this, but I don't know if ebikes on single track trails is such a good idea.. I rode the trails this weekend on my Fuji hardtail, Doubt that I ever went over 15 mph and used my feet to feel my speed and traction. At no point did I think having an eBike would've been a help to me. I was doing 5-10 mph trying to stay on the single track washouts and curves and not needing any more help!

If you put someone who isn't in very good physical shape and who isn't a skilled mountain biker on a electric mountain bike, they will have 5x human power immediately available to them.. I can see these riders going way too fast above their skill set and crashing or worse going off course and into the woods.
I do think it's a good idea to allow e-bikes on single track.
The point is not to boost speed, but still allow people like myself to continue to enjoy a wonderful experience as we age.
When I first purchased my e-bike I was allowed to ride on the single track, but now haters are closing that option.
Single track has a nice flow which is not available on the 4wheel drive roads I'm now forced to ride rather than the single track.
The 250-350 watt of assistance makes the experience tremendous.
I have not found it more dangerous than my first 45 years riding mountain bikes.

Haters of e-bikes are taking away something I have enjoyed greatly.
 

Jan

Member
Every time the e-bike controversy unfold, I can't help but think: has this been commonplace throughout history? Have humans always been defensive, in a cavalier way, about everything? When bikes were first invented, did people say, "why don't you just walk"? "You'd get a better workout" When fire was first discovered, were there still people laying outside of the warmth, blowing their breath into their hands and saying, "fire, ha!! that's cheating. I'll eat my meat raw, thank you very much". And what about airplanes? Were there diehard individuals still jumping off their roofs with their umbrellas, professing that they will never surrender to "trendy" technology? And what about the advent of the wheel? How many people begrudgingly carried arm fulls of items, refusing to surrender to a newer, reliable modality? I'll give the haters 3-5 years, but remember: those who fight the most, die the soonest!
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm not a hater of ebikes.. I've had a total of 3 for 7 years and put around 12,000 miles on them. Sold my Stromer and will buy a new one this summer. Right now just enjoying my other bikes.

And I think that skilled riders on single tracks are fine with ebikes.

I don't think out of shape or low skill riders on challenging trails is a good idea; they will put themselves and others at risk... Being able to accelerate to 20 mph sounds like a disaster for someone who doesn't yet know how to handle narrow turns rocks and roots.

Really don't understand why anyone would think I'm being unreasonable. It's about being safe.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I do think it's a good idea to allow e-bikes on single track.
The point is not to boost speed, but still allow people like myself to continue to enjoy a wonderful experience as we age.
When I first purchased my e-bike I was allowed to ride on the single track, but now haters are closing that option.
Single track has a nice flow which is not available on the 4wheel drive roads I'm now forced to ride rather than the single track.
The 250-350 watt of assistance makes the experience tremendous.
I have not found it more dangerous than my first 45 years riding mountain bikes.

Haters of e-bikes are taking away something I have enjoyed greatly.
Amen brotha!
 

Adrian

Active Member
Yeah I'm not a hater of ebikes.. I've had a total of 3 for 7 years and put around 12,000 miles on them. Sold my Stromer and will buy a new one this summer. Right now just enjoying my other bikes.

And I think that skilled riders on single tracks are fine with ebikes.

I don't think out of shape or low skill riders on challenging trails is a good idea; they will put themselves and others at risk... Being able to accelerate to 20 mph sounds like a disaster for someone who doesn't yet know how to handle narrow turns rocks and roots.

Really don't understand why anyone would think I'm being unreasonable. It's about being safe.
The problem is you can't easily distinguish between "skilled" ebikers and "unskilled" - though I'd like to see the sign at the start of the single track that tried; "Only ebikes with riders that won't kill themselves and others on the single track allowed. Any unskilled riders on a normal bicycle can kill themselves and others as much as they want though." ;)
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
The problem is you can't easily distinguish between "skilled" ebikers and "unskilled" - though I'd like to see the sign at the start of the single track that tried; "Only ebikes with riders that won't kill themselves and others on the single track allowed. Any unskilled riders on a normal bicycle can kill themselves and others as much as they want though." ;)
Yep there is no way to regulate who can ride, how fast they ride or how much power their bikes can have..

Most inexperienced riders probably don't know that the trails are marked for difficulty, like ski slopes. Green dot for easy, Blue square for intermediate, Black Diamond for expert.