Top speed on the flat Yamaha Cross (Core or Connect)?

floyd67

New Member
Hello Ebikers,

Two or three questions for owners and thorough testers:

1. For US Yamaha Cross Core or Connect owners, what is your top speed that you can comfortably maintain on the flat in the highest (18th) gear?

2. At that speed, is your cadence already at or already near the 110 max for Yamaha's motor assist?

3. What does an accurate speedo show when you reach a cadence of 110 in the highest gear while still propelling the bike.

(I realize that unmodified class 1 has a power assist max of 20 mph (32 km/h), so #3 is hopefully extending that on the flat with self power.)

Thanks!
 
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OrTrek

New Member
Good question. I am looking at the same (#1)- both the the Cross and Urban Rush. My plans call for me to ride these tomorrow. If I do I'll update you.

BTW - I do have a Haibike Yamaha Motor.
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
Try this:

- To go fast with less effort, stay under 100 RPM.
- To go far and use little battery, stay above 100 RPM.

I am fairly confident it will work even if I’ve never used the PW-SE. The peak assist isn’t at 110 RPM. It’s lower.

With mid-drives, there’s almost always a sweet spot to go fast with little effort and a sweet spot to go far and minimize battery consumption.

I have a PW-45. Peak assist is around 90RPM but max assist is 100RPM. To go far I stay above 90RPM, to go fast with little effort I stay under 90RPM. The PW-SE is an evolution of the PW, so it makes sense to add 10RPM to the equation.
 

floyd67

New Member
A
Try this:

- To go fast with less effort, stay under 100 RPM.
- To go far and use little battery, stay above 100 RPM.

I am fairly confident it will work even if I’ve never used the PW-SE. The peak assist isn’t at 110 RPM. It’s lower.

With mid-drives, there’s almost always a sweet spot to go fast with little effort and a sweet spot to go far and minimize battery consumption.

I have a PW-45. Peak assist is around 90RPM but max assist is 100RPM. To go far I stay above 90RPM, to go fast with little effort I stay under 90RPM. The PW-SE is an evolution of the PW, so it makes sense to add 10RPM to the equation.
Aye, good advice.

1. Can one go 20mph with nice motor assist, in a relevant (tall) gear for 90 rpm cadence on a Yamaha brand road eBike?

(The speed sensor rear hub will reportedly cut all motor assist at 20mph, or 110 cadence by the 3rd "Yamaha Triple Sensor", presumably integrated into the mid crank rotor with the torque sensor.)

Seems very few forum members own or thoroughly tested these interesting bikes of the last two years, this is a basic central question, no?

Thanks!
(OP)
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
A

Aye, good advice.

1. Can one go 20mph with nice motor assist, in a relevant (tall) gear for 90 rpm cadence on a Yamaha brand road eBike?
With the PW-45 it’s easily doable on flats. The whole question with the US PW-SE version is to know at what speed the drive cuts out. 18.7, 19, 19.5, or 20mph? That’s not a superfluous question question if you want to keep it as a class 1 bike.

I can get to 43 km/h with 48x11(12) on the S-Pedelec version on flats. That’s the cutoff speed. After that I hit “the wall” because zero assist is provided. But I’m 95 kilos and the bike is about 25 kilos (with rack, lock, etc.).

A lighter bike and lighter rider might be able to easily ride past the cutoff speed. But that’s not me.

Good system overall though. After over 23,000 kms, I’ve had no mechanical issues with the drive. Very happy in that sense. Good hillclimber too. It has lots of useful torque in low RPMs. I really wanted an S-Pedelec that could climb 15-20% grade hills as well. It’s not the best 45 km/h bike out there, but it climbs well and was available at a mid-range price (around the equivalent of $2800).
 

jim6b

Active Member
This graph shows Yamaha PW-X having a distinct peak power in comparison to Speicalized (Brose) and Bosch.

E-MTB ENGINES
Mechanical power in watts: It shows how easily the driver can keep a certain speed.


 

floyd67

New Member
With the PW-45 it’s easily doable on flats. The whole question with the US PW-SE version is to know at what speed the drive cuts out. 18.7, 19, 19.5, or 20mph? That’s not a superfluous question question if you want to keep it as a class 1 bike.

I can get to 43 km/h with 48x11(12) on the S-Pedelec version on flats. That’s the cutoff speed. After that I hit “the wall” because zero assist is provided. But I’m 95 kilos and the bike is about 25 kilos (with rack, lock, etc.).

A lighter bike and lighter rider might be able to easily ride past the cutoff speed. But that’s not me.

Good system overall though. After over 23,000 kms, I’ve had no mechanical issues with the drive. Very happy in that sense. Good hillclimber too. It has lots of useful torque in low RPMs. I really wanted an S-Pedelec that could climb 15-20% grade hills as well. It’s not the best 45 km/h bike out there, but it climbs well and was available at a mid-range price (around the equivalent of $2800).
Hi JayVee
I'm asking as I do not have my Yamaha Cross Core (PW-SE) yet, but will be here next week.

My wife has a new Costco Genze e102, turns out it has a quality Japanese 350W rear hub motor by Dapu as used by Pedego and HB. It only weighs 46 lbs total and I am 145 lbs. When I ride it (7 speed) in top gear under torque-only sensing PAS on the flat, the motor starts cutting off at just 18mph, and then I am just riding a 46 lbs 26" 1-5/8 tire bike without a motor! No one would want to do that. :) However, the whole bike is saved as you can peddle and add twist throttle as "PAS 0" up to 20 mph nicely without any momentum sapping struggle with a restricted (20 mph) pulsing motor at 18 mph at any PAS (1 to 5).

I don't know what the 'real' cut off speed is on the Class I Yamaha Cross Core in practice, but my fingers are crossed that it has decent assist PAS right up to exactly 20 mph. I read somewhere online that it is 19! I would ride a standard road bike around 22-24 mph on flats all the time, so those last few mph really are 'everything' it seems- suprises me that any big eBike maker would get that equation wrong. Probably in an effort to 'stay legal' but not have a hard stop at 20 mph. The E-lux California model I tried just presses the boundary a little, got to about 21-22 mph, so that there is no issue or 'hard cutout' at the target 20 mph.

F67
 

floyd67

New Member
This graph shows Yamaha PW-X having a distinct peak power in comparison to Speicalized (Brose) and Bosch.
Hi, Sorry seems an entirely different topic, and is heavily debated all over other threads here, for example as not taking into account the application that 'other Yamaha motor on all the different bikes that use it. Let's stay on topic? (Yamaha Cross Core/Connect top speed on the flat?)

Thanks
SF
 
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StmbtDave

Member
I have a Wabash rather than the Cross Core but it also has the PW-SE Class 1 motor. The motor cutoff is so smooth that I don't even notice it. Because it is so smooth, I'm not really sure at what exact speed it cuts out. I can easily go past the 20 mph limit under just pedal power. I will be doing 23 or so and haven't even noticed that I no longer have assist.
 

floyd67

New Member
I have a Wabash rather than the Cross Core but it also has the PW-SE Class 1 motor. The motor cutoff is so smooth that I don't even notice it. Because it is so smooth, I'm not really sure at what exact speed it cuts out. I can easily go past the 20 mph limit under just pedal power. I will be doing 23 or so and haven't even noticed that I no longer have assist.
Hi StmbtD,
That is indeed good to hear- bodes well for the Yamaha road bikes indeed.

So, you are riding a 43 lbs hybrid road bike on flat pavement at 23 mph without exerting a good effort, as most can do with a ~19 lbs acoustic road bike??

We know the legal class 1 motor cutout should be at (preferably) or below 20 mph, but maybe Yamaha got it right and just made it 22 or 23 then. Otherwise your legs are like tree trunks, and you weigh 140 lbs? :cool:

Thanks,
F67
 

StmbtDave

Member
We know the legal class 1 motor cutout should be at (preferably) or below 20 mph, but maybe Yamaha got it right and just made it 22 or 23 then. Otherwise your legs are like tree trunks, and you weigh 140 lbs? :cool:

Thanks,
F67
By no means. I'm 72, carry 190 lbs, had 3 knee surgeries, and am on drugs for a wonky heart. LOL

The Yamaha Display X shows bars on the left which I believe show the amount of boost being supplied. The bars disappear somewhere close to 20 mph so I believe the boost cuts out at that point. The Wabash does have the drop bars so I'm riding in a much more efficient position (wind wise) than those bikes with straight bars and an upright riding position. I suspect the riding position has much more influence on the higher speed than does the condition of the rider.
 
When I ride [the Costco Genze e102] in top gear under torque-only sensing PAS on the flat, the motor starts cutting off at just 18mph.
I believe this is fairly common. Many e-bikes seem to have a power vs speed curve that looks like the attached graph:

speed_curve.png


where you get full assist to a certain speed (which I am calling "start cutoff"), then the assist reduces until it hits zero at a 2nd speed ("finish cutoff"). This gives a smooth cutoff. Some bikes do have a fixed cutoff speed where the power goes from max. to zero, but that gives you a very jerky cutoff as a slight speed change gives a dramatic power change.

I have never seen these speeds published. The closest I have ever seen is some graphs from Bosh showing the custom modes programmable in the Nyon display where "start cutoff" is 20km/hr and "finish cutoff" is 25km/hr, the European limit. (Nyon is only available in Europe). This makes sense as having the maximum cutoff speed ("Speed B") higher than the legal limit would technically be illegal. I suspect having "finish cutoff" at the legal limit is common, although I have heard of some bikes (from forum reports) that continue to provide power a bit above the legal limit.

Unfortunately, I don't know the power vs. speed curve for Yamaha.
 

OrTrek

New Member
I have a Wabash rather than the Cross Core but it also has the PW-SE Class 1 motor. The motor cutoff is so smooth that I don't even notice it. Because it is so smooth, I'm not really sure at what exact speed it cuts out. I can easily go past the 20 mph limit under just pedal power. I will be doing 23 or so and haven't even noticed that I no longer have assist.
Exactly on StmbtDaves input. On my Haibikes older PW motor its also seamless. BTW- I rode the Wabash (and Core). Both are great bikes but the Wabash is one really great bike.
 
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Catbiscuits

Member
I have a Wabash and have exactly the same experience. When it cuts out, its fine. The only time its weird is when I have the bike in high mode, am heading downhill, and want to speed up to match traffic. While I’ll be able to increase speed, I’ll have a little plateau at 20. Generally if I hit 20, I’m going fast enough that the cut off should matter.