When does an electric bike become an electric motorcycle?

stevenast

Well-Known Member
In this case there's really no one spending a lot of money against us, I don't think. So, having a group standing up for our rights should be beneficial to the majority.

Bikes with throttles are still not going to be considered motorcycles, in my estimate. They will just have some extra restrictions if the model laws pass.
 
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Bike_On

Well-Known Member
In this case there's really no one spending a lot of money against us, I don't think. So, having a group standing up for our rights should be beneficial to the majority.
Bikes with throttles are still not going to be considered motorcycles, in my estimate. They will just have some extra restrictions if the model laws pass.
That is a good thought , Steve. Unfortunately, theyare standing up for their bank accounts first, and preferences-freedoms of the public second.

One just can't deny that some validity is given to PAS bikes because one must pedal, but that is really a minor performance difference. Bikes can be cadence sensed to output full power, and it's like a throttle then.

These throttle ebike brothers are bicycles first, not motorcycles. Their power output is the same of less than the speed pedelecs (< 1hp) and certainly less than a gas scooter (2.5hp)

In time, I hope we get the freedoms to ride 20-30mph with limited regulation and either pas, throttle or both.

BTW, what is magical about 28mph? Is that the speed of a 1hp mtn bike on the flats with 170lb?
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
In time, I hope we get the freedoms to ride 20-30mph with limited regulation and either pas, throttle or both.
I agree, and "limited regulation" is likely going to mean street-only riding of high-speed e-bikes, with no driver's license or registration required.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I agree, and "limited regulation" is likely going to mean street-only riding of high-speed e-bikes, with no driver's license or registration required.
You know what Steve, I wouldn't be too hell-bent on keeping 20+ ebikes off the bike paths. As a small group, if we don't stand together, we will be torn apart. It may be convenient in your mind to throw the 20+ ers off the jogging/bike path, but the 20- ers look just like them.

And come to think of it, an ebike that has the potential to go 20mph powered by a motor on a path with joggers and children at times, doesn't sound too safe to me. If you are going to kick off the 20+ers, then maybe we should be kicking off ALL ebikes and make you ride on the road like us. ?? or maybe we can work together to allow ALL ebike classes to use the bike paths with posted speed limits, perhaps lights/bells, use of a limited power setting or just turned off??

Don't think the LP crowd will be able to separate themselves and act like normal bicycles, when they are not....
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
You know what Steve, I wouldn't be too hell-bent on keeping 20+ ebikes off the bike paths. As a small group, if we don't stand together, we will be torn apart. It may be convenient in your mind to throw the 20+ ers off the jogging/bike path, but the 20- ers look just like them.

And come to think of it, an ebike that has the potential to go 20mph powered by a motor on a path with joggers and children at times, doesn't sound too safe to me. If you are going to kick off the 20+ers, then maybe we should be kicking off ALL ebikes and make you ride on the road like us. ?? or maybe we can work together to allow ALL ebike classes to use the bike paths with posted speed limits, perhaps lights/bells, use of a limited power setting or just turned off??

Don't think the LP crowd will be able to separate themselves and act like normal bicycles, when they are not....
The over 20 mph e-bikes are not going to be acceptable on shared-use paths. I'm not making this rule, it's just the way it's going to be. I'm just the messenger.

You may be right about the under 20 mph getting the boot as well. I hope not, but there's no point "sticking together" for path access, it won't work. Lawmakers will not want mopeds by another name to be racing by pedestrians on paths.
 

pxpaulx

Well-Known Member
i am not sure why it doesnt make sense to put up speed limits and enforce them with tickets in high traffic areas. it could be easily as lucrative as actual auto speeding tickets. then, you could choose a bugati or a hyundai in terms of bikes, they would all be policed the same. using the same analogy, you can have a car that can do 200mph, but you sure as hell wouldnt want to get caught doing it!

instead it seems we will end up with laws that are obscure (to the general public and likely to the police) and bikes that will be more difficult to place into categories in real time on the spot incidents, adding more stress when an incident does arise.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
i am not sure why it doesnt make sense to put up speed limits and enforce them with tickets in high traffic areas. it could be easily as lucrative as actual auto speeding tickets. then, you could choose a bugati or a hyundai in terms of bikes, they would all be policed the same. using the same analogy, you can have a car that can do 200mph, but you sure as hell wouldnt want to get caught doing it!

instead it seems we will end up with laws that are obscure (to the general public and likely to the police) and bikes that will be more difficult to place into categories in real time on the spot incidents, adding more stress when an incident does arise.
Paul,
Well said and spot on. Solutions to make most of us happy are attainable. The will to get there may wane.

What I want to say is: The liberal, nanny do-gooder crowd just can't feel happy unless they are controlling somebody's freedom, thinking they are doing a service to others and themselves. It smells.

What I should say is: I hear you concerns, disagree, and we need to flush it out with lawmakers.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
The over 20 mph e-bikes are not going to be acceptable on shared-use paths. I'm not making this rule, it's just the way it's going to be. I'm just the messenger.

You may be right about the under 20 mph getting the boot as well. I hope not, but there's no point "sticking together" for path access, it won't work. Lawmakers will not want mopeds by another name to be racing by pedestrians on paths.
I am in strong support to keep the access details local and not at a state/national level.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I am in strong support to keep the access details local and not at a state/national level.
Cali Law :
California E-Bike Laws
Posted on 08/04/2014 by Ebikes
Electric Bicycles are defined by the California Vehicle Code. In summary, electric bicycles are to be operated like conventional bicycles in California. There are several exceptions to this. A person must be at least 16 years old, and anyone riding an electric bicycle must wear a bicycle helmet. The e-bikes must have an electric motor that has a power output less than 1,000 watts, is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground, is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour, operates in a manner so that the electric motor is disengaged or ceases to function when the brakes are applied, or operates in a manner such that the motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism that, when released, will cause the electric motor to disengage or cease to function.

Driver’s licenses, registration, insurance and license plate requirements do not apply. An electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle. An electric bicycle may only be operated by a person 16 years of age or older. Drinking and driving laws apply. Motorized bicycles may not be operated on dedicated bicycle paths unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless allowed by local government ordinance. Additional laws or ordinances may apply to the use of electric bicycles by each city or county
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
There's a thread with a thousand posts about all the sins of the Sondors bike and all the little rules he broke. But basically anyone selling a 25 mph electric cycle is playing a little fast and loose with the existing regulations. And the trend of the regulations, California and Minnesota, is to treat the 20+ mph bikes as low powered motorcycles. That's what Haibike says, and they are on the cutting edge.

If the Cal stuff passes, it's kind of a done deal. It means: (1)The CPSC approach is dead. (2)The 28 mph cycle is not an ebike, not a bike. They are minimally regulating it now in Cal, but good luck with that. So (3) there will be more regulation

They should have a little memorial for CPSC. In many ways CPSC was a lie, and the industry sold a lie. There is no way the sub 20 and 20+ guys are on the same team. You can thank the Cal rules and the knife in the back of CPSC for that. How do you think we are going back? It's going to take 10 very messy years to work this out. I will not be involved. They didn't even ask for the opinions of normal ebikers, when they drafted the Cal rules. That shows how the system works. There are no alternate proposals on the table.

I'm a realist. Utah draws a line at 20 mph, and if you go beyond that, you are in a no man's land. It isn't worth it. I'll happily build 350 watt bikes and limit the peak current to a reasonable amount. The regs are very, very dicey above 20 mph.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
The over 20 mph e-bikes are not going to be acceptable on shared-use paths. I'm not making this rule, it's just the way it's going to be. I'm just the messenger.

You may be right about the under 20 mph getting the boot as well. I hope not, but there's no point "sticking together" for path access, it won't work. Lawmakers will not want mopeds by another name to be racing by pedestrians on paths.
To bring your head back out of the clouds...

Here are the players and venue: regular bikes, ebikes, road, bike paths and off road trails. You like to be concerned about the majority... well the majority see ebikes as ebikes, not 4 classes. When an ebike is discovered on a bike path, due to speed or not stealth enough, the police and common person is not shifting through their memory at EBR to identify that bike. It's an ebike. A car is a car, and that is a classification of transportation. In the end, these nuances will get boiled down to minimum 2, hopefully 3.

1. The ebike is a bicycle.
2. The ebike is a moped.
3. The ebike is a scooter/motorcycle.

Steve, if you and the CPSC keep pushing to exclude the higher powered brethren, and don't leave them a leg to stand on, we will have an anemic selection of OEMs, multitudes of lawbreakers trying to trick their speed govenors, and worst of all, a once promising technology and green transport venue now castrated from the market. For many, the once exciting ebike with 20- power, will become a boring toy and replaced with a normal bicycle, making the purist snobs happy and the auto makers too.
 

katie6963

New Member
Who is the idiot bike rider doing 30 on a shared path?
Dear DWE, uh, that idiot would be me. It was my first time on a bicycle in years and the hill between my boat and Boulder City is very steep and who would think a little folding bike would go so fast. A few were alarmed but no one was harmed. I promise not to do it again.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
The liberal, nanny do-gooder crowd just can't feel happy unless they are controlling somebody's freedom
The conservative "me" crowd needs to understand that personal freedom ends when it invades someone else's space. With hundreds of millions of people in this country, that's why we have to have laws and regulations.
 

grench

Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of more laws...enforce the ones we have! The laws are so selectively enforced and punishments are reduced or forgiven criminals are not deterred. Face it...laws primarily effect people who obey the law. At some point more laws will get to your house...
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of more laws...enforce the ones we have! The laws are so selectively enforced and punishments are reduced or forgiven criminals are not deterred. Face it...laws primarily effect people who obey the law. At some point more laws will get to your house...
Anyway, regarding new laws for the relatively new category of throttle-controlled motorized bicycles...

...those new laws are coming!
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Anyway, regarding new laws for the relatively new category of throttle-controlled motorized bicycles...

...those new laws are coming!
Steve,

You want the new laws? Yes they will come, but why not be fair and realistic, and quit being biased against a throttle bike.

Could you accept three legit classes of ebikes regardless if it is PAS or throttle? If not, why?
1. 20- ebikes
2. 28- ebikes, 750W
3. 1hp-2.5hp ebikes - emoped

Anything beyond that would be a motorcycle/scooter regulated