18650 Cells Go Mainstream

George S.

Well-Known Member
I noticed that among the Deals of the Day on Amazon is a lightning deal for the standard ebike cells (found in packs), the 18650.

The price is not that great. The brand is unknown to me. Buried in the copy they mention SANYO NCR18650GA, but they don't say these are that battery, exactly. They claim both a very high capacity and a very high discharge rate. If they are selling into the Vape market, these things matter.

You can get top quality and brand name cells for much less, but you need to buy 50.

These are fairly dangerous things to keep around. The ad makes it seem like this is the logical choice for your flashlight. These specific batteries have protection circuits designed for consumer users. I don't know if it is a mainstream product, but this is what the vapers are using, along with tactical flashlight owners.

Curiously, there is a website that is devoted to analyzing the quality of reviews on Amazon. I assume they look for patterns. The analysis takes about a minute. A lot of the reviews on Amazon are troubling, with people getting a free sample to review.

Fakespot gives them an "F" for this product, but the company has dozens of products on Amazon.

Screenshot 2016-10-13 at 10.25.04 AM.png
 

Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
Well they're calling them "protected" so they aren't GA. I'm really getting close to a 12GA fire cabinet. $350. After seeing the Ebike with the steel vented battery shell it's obvious a fire cabinet would at least save the structure from burning down. LOTS os smoke and fumes, but no raging fire. I'm sure we'll see more events from the vape market.
 

Cameron Newland

Well-Known Member
I noticed that among the Deals of the Day on Amazon is a lightning deal for the standard ebike cells (found in packs), the 18650.

The price is not that great. The brand is unknown to me. Buried in the copy they mention SANYO NCR18650GA, but they don't say these are that battery, exactly. They claim both a very high capacity and a very high discharge rate. If they are selling into the Vape market, these things matter.

You can get top quality and brand name cells for much less, but you need to buy 50.

These are fairly dangerous things to keep around. The ad makes it seem like this is the logical choice for your flashlight. These specific batteries have protection circuits designed for consumer users. I don't know if it is a mainstream product, but this is what the vapers are using, along with tactical flashlight owners.

Curiously, there is a website that is devoted to analyzing the quality of reviews on Amazon. I assume they look for patterns. The analysis takes about a minute. A lot of the reviews on Amazon are troubling, with people getting a free sample to review.

Fakespot gives them an "F" for this product, but the company has dozens of products on Amazon.

View attachment 11072
I'm excited to see these cells go mainstream, however, I think it's the fire risk as well as the need to keep them at a safe voltage that is going to cause consumers to continue to rely on ancient lead-acid batteries. All of the niche markets (security, military, transportation) have already switched over to lithium-ion, and the savvy consumers have, as well. It might take another decade or two for the slower consumers to come around.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
I'm excited to see these cells go mainstream, however, I think it's the fire risk as well as the need to keep them at a safe voltage that is going to cause consumers to continue to rely on ancient lead-acid batteries. All of the niche markets (security, military, transportation) have already switched over to lithium-ion, and the savvy consumers have, as well. It might take another decade or two for the slower consumers to come around.
The numbers kind of grab me. State of the art in the US consumer market is an Eneloop AA cell, which is 1.2V and 2.0 AH. So 2.4 watt hours. The GA cell is 3.7v and 3.5 AH or 13 watt hours. The 18650 is larger, but in the ball park for a 'small cell'.

Looking at this earlier in the day. Getting a little close to some of the European bikes, in terms of price? Clearly being driven by battery prices:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/specs.php
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
@RoyL

Wow, that is an amazing video and a bike that everyone should think about for a few moments. I don't think I've seen anything that defines better why electric will win. And it's only $40k! Wow!
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
They've been fairly mainstream in the LED light market for a while. I bought some in like 2011 for a Lezyne light that had user replaceable 18650's to extend the runtime. I got mine on ebay back then. After reading about the fire thread I thought about getting them out of my bike parts box and throwing them out :eek:
 

Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
They've been fairly mainstream in the LED light market for a while. I bought some in like 2011 for a Lezyne light that had user replaceable 18650's to extend the runtime. I got mine on ebay back then. After reading about the fire thread I thought about getting them out of my bike parts box and throwing them out :eek:
Which cells are they? Not GA cells in 2011?
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Which cells are they? Not GA cells in 2011?
I had to Google what GA means. No it doesn't look like the 18650's were using that chemistry back in 2011. But you have LED lights that can draw a lot of power. My 550 lumen Lezyne light could drain a 18650 in one hour (figure around a 10Wh battery back then.) In an e-bike you've got ~40-100 of these batteries in series/parallel so the current demands per cell probably aren't a whole lot different. I remember reading about the same issues back then on the candlepower forums. Proper charging and use of protected cells was recommended to prevent fires/explosions.

I remember paying $6-10/ea for a quality 18650 cell back then. The steady drop in pricing the reason we have relatively affordable li-ion batteries on e-bikes now. Hopefully the trend continues so that we can get even bigger batteries for the same price.
 
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Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
I had to Google what GA means. No it doesn't look like the 18650's were using that chemistry back in 2011. But you have LED lights that can draw a lot of power. My 550 lumen Lezyne light could drain a 18650 in one hour (figure around a 10Wh battery back then.) In an e-bike you've got ~40-100 of these batteries in series/parallel so the current demands per cell probably aren't a whole lot different. I remember reading about the same issues back then on the candlepower forums. Proper charging and use of protected cells was recommended to prevent fires/explosions.

I remember paying $6-10/ea for a quality 18650 cell back then. The steady drop in pricing the reason we have relatively affordable li-ion batteries on e-bikes now. Hopefully the trend continues so that we can get even bigger batteries for the same price.
Sorry, that's where I picked up on the thread, discussing GA cells. There's really not much in common with 2011 cells.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
There's really not much in common with 2011 cells.
Not much in common? Surely you jest. Yes, steady improvements have been made in capacity and current ratings but they're not hugely different from what was being sold 5 years ago. I would argue higher voltage motors and significantly lower costs have done more to bolster the popularity of 18650 based e-bike batteries.
 
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Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
I won't argue my usage, but I find the GA cells to be very different performance wise than, for example, the 29E. Even more than some of the others in the class introduced 5 years ago. If size and shape is the discussion then I'd agree, but when it comes to performance, enough improvements to garner my take. Again, no argument, just my take in comparing 9 different packs and 8 cells.
 
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