2020 Riese & Müller Ebikes

webcurl

Active Member
First poster notice :)
I’m considering buying one of the new Charger 3 HS but I‘d like to know how their mileage compares to the non HS versions of the same model. The RM website mentions up to 90 Km I assume for the non HS motors.

The retailer also told me that the charger 3 doesn’t offer a dual Battery option.
Well, another option could be the Stromer ST1X...

Any opinion?
The Supercharger is a dual battery bike that you do not have to use with both batteries.
For Charger3 range, put "Performance Line Speed" in as motor & Powertube 500 into this:
 

pennybags

Member
Question - may be i am overthinking this - and I am still new here so may be there is a better way to word this. Is the welding job on the R&M bikes really this poor ? I have seen multiple pictures on their website, plus historical stuff.. cant figure out why they cant double weld and sand down the frame to make it smoother, nicer looking. I mean its literally $50 - $60 extra per frame to do that.



Screen Shot 2020-02-07 at 7.50.25 AM.png




As a comparison notice the super smooth welds on the Koga (below) - honestly, the charm in the bike is to make it functional, but also kinda beautiful. R&M is so close but that (poor welding) to me personally, is just lazy.

Screen Shot 2020-02-08 at 10.16.09 AM.png
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Grinding down welding on aluminum to make it look smooth, in fact removes material and makes the weld weaker. Those lumpy, layered welds are the correct way to weld aluminum for optimal strength. It creates a buttress at the joint, making it way stronger. It is a direct trade off. For me, the functional call made by R&M is the right one. Leaving all the weld in place, keeping it strong should be paramount, rather then weakening it to make it pretty. Go to any local welding shop and they will confirm this.
 

Theguvna

Member
Question - may be i am overthinking this - and I am still new here so may be there is a better way to word this. Is the welding job on the R&M bikes really this poor ? I have seen multiple pictures on their website, plus historical stuff.. cant figure out why they cant double weld and sand down the frame to make it smoother, nicer looking. I mean its literally $50 - $60 extra per frame to do that.



View attachment 45351



As a comparison notice the super smooth welds on the Koga (below) - honestly, the charm in the bike is to make it functional, but also kinda beautiful. R&M is so close but that (poor welding) to me personally, is just lazy.

View attachment 45352
R&M bike frames are hand welded in Taiwan or Portugal depending on the model. The weld is sanded down to a specific strength tolerance to R&M's specs. As Alaskan stated a sanded down weld ground down to a near smooth joint is not as strong. Seeing each weld bead to me is art IMHO.
 

pennybags

Member
Grinding down welding on aluminum to make it look smooth, in fact removes material and makes the weld weaker. Those lumpy, layered welds are the correct way to weld aluminum for optimal strength. It creates a buttress at the joint, making it way stronger. It is a direct trade off. For me, the functional call made by R&M is the right one. Leaving all the weld in place, keeping it strong should be paramount, rather then weakening it to make it pretty. Go to any local welding shop and they will confirm this.
  1. All frames (during design and certification process) are ASTM tested. Smoothening or not smoothening is not really a factor if the certification criteria is met.
  2. The way Koga does it is that they double weld and smooth down the second weld. I just want to highlight that nuance. Koga bikes ride for over 100k miles with no issues, that too fully loaded up to 400 lbs. These frames are also ASTM and EN tested, and they pass those tests.
  3. This is definitely an aesthetic issue - one that should be functional and pleasing at that premium price point.
  4. Last point, if that is all functional, and good, then why does RM airbrush those welds off the pictures on their website???
RM definitely makes great bikes, but aesthetics is huge part of the the experience. If Koga can do it, then pretty much everyone can.

See here (just taken off the US website).




Screen Shot 2020-02-08 at 11.41.43 AM.png
 

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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Not wanting to be argumentative but you asked a question. In my opinion just because you can make it pretty and less strong does not mean that you should. Given that a choice must be made, I favor the more structurally sound one. The website shot was obviously photoshopped by someone on the marketing team.

Personally I like the look of those weld beads. I am a big guy. I ride hard and often. Those visible welds convey strength and integrity to me.
 

pennybags

Member
R&M bike frames are hand welded in Taiwan or Portugal depending on the model. The weld is sanded down to a specific strength tolerance to R&M's specs. As Alaskan stated a sanded down weld ground down to a near smooth joint is not as strong. Seeing each weld bead to me is art IMHO.
I think I saw a video posted on a different thread- I believe theirs are made in Taiwan. Some are beginning to be in Vietnam.

Also case in point - Stromer seems to be doing a much better job of welding. They are strong bikes. I dont think theirs breaks - but looks soooo much better than RM.
 

pennybags

Member
Personally I like the look of those weld beads. I am a big guy. I ride hard and often. Those visible welds convey strength and integrity to me.
Agreed- i think it is each individual's preference. I definitely prefer smoother welds - as long as they all are passing the safety standards laid out.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Agreed- i think it is each individual's preference. I definitely prefer smoother welds - as long as they all are passing the safety standards laid out.
As you said the response where you asked for people's thoughts, you are new here. It was clear by how you stated your question what your preference was.

May I suggest, when you ask a question, you read the answers you get without arguing with them. That rarely, if ever, is conducive to community harmony or further open dialog. Arguing with the answers you get could make it appear that, rather than asking to learn what others think, you did so to start an argument. Honey rather than vinegar.
 

webcurl

Active Member
Koga bikes ride for over 100k miles with no issues, that too fully loaded up to 400 lbs. These frames are also ASTM and EN tested, and they pass those tests.
Is that the new smooth weld Koga's that have done 100k+ with up to 400lbs or the older non smooth ones?
Also, most of the Koga's have been simple round tube frame designs. I'm no welding expert but it's probable that there are different techniques in welding for round tube joints vs flat, etc.
I like the look of the weld's on my R&M :)

And where does it say that Dutch companies (Koga) & German companies (R&M) use an American testing body (ASTM) to test their frames during design & certification, and what certification is it?
Also in the photo you showed from the "US website" i can see weld's, bit fuzzy but they're there, not sure if the screenshot you provided is lower in resolution and therefore a bit fuzzy but i see no photo shopping going on.
 
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Adventum

New Member
pennybags brought up a topic of concern, asking the forum about it. He received replies that took issue with him. He then explained his points further. To me this exchange was polite expression of viewpoints in pertinent discussion. I personally learned from it . I came away with an increased appreciation of R&M and their policies about engineering and costs.
 

HariSeldon

New Member
Having direct experience, steel welding can be very neat when untouched and aluminium just tends to be chunky and I’d personally go with the ‘raw’ industrial look.

It’s possible to have a smooth aluminium wedding look, but the difficulty in practice is a minor dip can remove a lot of material to clean it up and whilst you may make still make the specification, the chunkier untouched weld is likely to exceed the spec by a margin.

We used to manufacture high tech rigging components in Titanium and fancy stainless steel alloys for the major global yacht races and super yachts.

When it came to the stainless welding, then a smooth polished weld surface is essential for the prevention of corrosion. The provision of these smooth polished welds to maintain strength is very costly. >

It does come down to preference and I guess if a lot of people want the smooth look it will come but at a higher price for all.
 

Jay Kay

Member
Personally, I am good with the welding seams. Admittedly the darker colour on my Delite doesn't highlight them as much as the Superdelite photo provided as an example, but even then it speaks of substance WITH style.
 

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