2170 Format (aka 'Tesla style') cells coming in a 21 Amphour battery pack

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Deleted member 4210

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Can't reveal the ebike brand, but its a brand I carry at my shop. Samsung high density cells. And its not going to be a whopping size wide battery, like those usually found on J***** Ebikes with these capacity batterys. You know, the ones that hung way out over the down tube edge, and have been prone to literally falling off the ebike during a normal pavement ride. (Battery coming off mid ride Warranty claims were not uncommon for that ebike vendor btw) No such issues with this design, thanks in no small part to these incredibly energy dense 2170 cells.

And the price add over a 14 AH battery 48 volts, will be $300. So we will have twice the capacity of a Bosch 500 watt hour battery, at under $1000 retail (if battery bought separately) from the ebike. ( Isn't Bosch's 500 watthour (36 Volt) battery around $900 or more ?)

E-Bike range game changer here IMHO. And it doesn't add that much more weight. (We are not talking lbs of added weight either) Dual battery pack options are now OBSOLETED. In fact, this cost will be lower, and less complicated, because you don't need a higher cost 'one-off low volume' custom build controller, no two casings, no two bms, no double amounts of battery connectors and wiring,no convoluted looking frames, that you need with the dual battery ebike offerings that have two integrated on the ebike frame. That special frame design too adds unnecessary costs.

Dual battery integrated was worse than shortsighted in my opinion anyway, particularly given that nearly everyone and their brother (in the ebike industry at least) knew that 2170's were already in existence. (just carry a spare) SMH.
 
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Clueless

Active Member
Tesla 21700 cells should not cost more and should increase range....two positives
To eliminate the two batteries this single battery will end up being quite large but that would /should be doable, because we will want some 1.5 Kwh available
Cheers
 
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Deleted member 4210

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Tesla 21700 cells should not cost more and should increase range....two positives
To eliminate the two batteries this single battery will end up being quite large but that would /should be doable, because we will want some 1.5 Kwh available
Cheers
Nope buddy, wont be 'quite large'. Need to bone up on your 2170 'math.' Very modest dimensional changes versus the existing 14 Ah battery they use now. Same length and fits in the same slot, and is in fact retroactively able to fit in their 2020 models. (and I seriously doubt Tesla would have went to the 2170 format, if the new packs would end up 'quite' larger than their previous 18650 cell packs. ) How do people come up with such garbage speculation ? Sheesh. The 'banter' here is starting to become worse than the old Yahoo finance forums back in the 90's. 🤪 (P.s. your moniker certainly fits )
 
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Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
Nope buddy, wont be 'quite large'. Need to bone up on your 2170 'math

Greats posts today Mike ! BH , Greyp , has been using the 21700's for over a year. Check out this emtb from Olympia- 900wh pack of 21700cells.


I looked on your store website(nice and very informative ! ) can't tell which one has the 21700 pack . The Ncm, Surface ? Those are Tier 3 ebikes. Or is it a newer brand not on the website ??
 
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Johnny

Well-Known Member
Yes Bosch batteries are insanely overpriced (Yamaha and similar companies are also similarly priced so it is not just Bosch).

I believe tesla model 3 has at least a 50kwh battery, if the battery was priced similarly, just that battery would cost around $90K...

Tesla 2170 cells seems to be sold around $2.75 per cell for 3.75v 5000mah capacity which is very impressive.

Maybe Ravi can elaborate if there is a difference between the 21700 vs these newer tesla 2170 cells.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
This video explains some of what is being discussed here
21700 are the best cells right now, a lot of major power tool companies are switching to these for better performance in their batteries regardless of runtime.
Makita just launched their 40 Volt system with these cells.

I am going to agree with the OP, If we can get 52V with 21700 cells in 21 amps hours, your butt will give out before the battery.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
Ah so the last digit just refers to the shape(according to the youtube comment on the link), 0 being cylindrical.

Tesla seems to have but the cost more than %50 for these cells which seems to be very impressive.

Too bad some will be stuck with the overpriced oem batteries when their original battery dies out.
 

Stefan Mikes

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Europe
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Brwinów (PL)
Why do I think the Specialized UI-600 battery is built with the 21700 cells and it is the reason it is relatively small and only weighs 3.5 kg (7.7 lbs)? The 604 Wh Specialized battery has been in the market since 2017. So I cannot understand what is so exciting with the battery described by OP save its low price. By comparison, Giant EnergyPak Smart 625 must be made with the older-type cells, is larger and weighs 4.3 kg (9.5 lbs).
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
So I cannot understand what is so exciting with the battery described by OP save its low price
It seems the price and savings in weight. I see these cells for $2.75 a piece which is way cheaper than any other similar offering (same capacity 21700 cells seem to be hovering around 6-8$ a piece).

Bh also used 21700 I believe and these cells should have been the standard.

Btw Bosch 625wh battery is also around 3.5kg and uses 18650 so it is likely that Vado also uses same cells. In terms of weight Stromer st5 battery is only 4.8kg for almost 1kwh, which is quite light if you scale the capacity of the other offerings.
 

FlatSix911

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USA
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Silicon Valley
Nope buddy, wont be 'quite large'. Need to bone up on your 2170 'math.' Very modest dimensional changes versus the existing 14 Ah battery they use now.
Same length and fits in the same slot, and is in fact retroactively able to fit in their 2020 models. (and I seriously doubt Tesla would have went to the 2170 format, if the new packs would end up 'quite' larger than their previous 18650 cell packs. )
How do people come up with such garbage speculation ? Sheesh. The 'banter' here is starting to become worse than the old Yahoo finance forums back in the 90's. 🤪 (P.s. your moniker certainly fits )
Mike, stop insulting other members on EBR.
BTW - Tesla developed a completely new pack design to accommodate the 21700 cell dimensions and cooling requirements.... the Model S and X continue to use the 18650 form factor.
 
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Stefan Mikes

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Region
Europe
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Brwinów (PL)
Btw Bosch 625wh battery is also around 3.5kg and uses 18650 so it is likely that Vado also uses same cells.
I'm not sure Johnny. Specialized UI batteries all have the same form factor for 460, 500, and 604 Wh. The 500 and 604 batteries might have the same serial/parallel cell configuration, only the "bigger" battery might use the 21700 while the smaller one could be built of 18650s. I speculate of course but the UI battery is really compact compared to the Giant and "no name" batteries of similar capacity I use on other e-bikes.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure Johnny. Specialized UI batteries all have the same form factor for 460, 500, and 604 Wh. The 500 and 604 batteries might have the same serial/parallel cell configuration, only the "bigger" battery might use the 21700 while the smaller one could be built of 18650s. I speculate of course but the UI battery is really compact compared to the Giant and "no name" batteries of similar capacity I use on other e-bikes.

Me neither, I would not be surprised if they are using those cells, specialized is good at utilizing new technology.
 

percymon

Active Member
Well im not sure too many people NEED a 21Ah battery pack, personally i'd rather have two smaller capacity packs - if one fails i still have a working one.
 
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Deleted member 4210

Guest
Mike, stop insulting other members on EBR.
BTW - Tesla developed a completely new pack design to accommodate the 21700 cell dimensions and cooling requirements.... the Model S and X continue to use the 18650 form factor.
Dude he’s flat out wrong. I’ve seen the battery and It’s not ‘quite large.’ It’s only slightly thicker than their 14 ah battery by less than 1/4 inch on the sides. And you need to butt out, by you of all people should know better, as you repeatedly take pot shots at everything you don’t agree with and attack the person, rather than accepting you are just plain wrong most of the time when you take those pot shots. Btw, your point made zero sense. Do you even understand how cylindrical shapes stack together, or how much more the density has increased so they don’t need anywhere close to the same number of cells when they go from 18650 to 2170?
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
Dude he’s flat out wrong. I’ve seen the battery and It’s not ‘quite large.’ It’s only slightly thicker than their 14 ah battery by less than 1/4 inch on the sides. And you need to butt out, by you of all people should know better, as you repeatedly take pot shots at everything you don’t agree with and attack the person, rather than accepting you are just plain wrong most of the time when you take those pot shots. Btw, your point made zero sense. Do you even understand how cylindrical shapes stack together, or how much more the density has increased so they don’t need anywhere close to the same number of cells when they go from 18650 to 2170?
It's interesting that Milwaukee's 18V 8amp/hr battery with 21700 cells is about the same size as Makita 40V 4amp/hr battery with 21700, it seems if you go up in either Volts or Amp/hrs with the 21700 cells the size increases accordingly.
 

Clueless

Active Member
Hello Mr.Mikes E-Bikes
I am sorry that I upset you with my foolish post but I was just participating. I read your initial post and wa to agree with you regarding the dual battery,controller and cables and casings and all that extra stuff you mention. You also mention 500 watt Bosch batteries I assume times two for a total of 1000 wh.
My post clearly references 1.5 Kwh which is why I used the term « quite large »
You were referencing 1000wh 2x Bosch 500 watt batteries vs.my 1.5Kwh reference

please don’t attack my math, 18650 is shorter and narrower that 21700 not by alot but math is math.

Again I am sorry for upsetting you
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
with the 21700 cells and it is the reason it is relatively small and only weighs 3.5 kg (7.7 lbs)? The 604 Wh

48vx12.6amps=604wh. That's 18650cells with a 13s4p configuration in your Specialized. If you need additional in depth explanation , other members hopefully will add in.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
@Ebiker01: I suggest you check facts first, write next. It is a 36 V battery.
604 Wh / 36 V = 16.77 Ah. It is 10s configuration. Now tell me how many cells in parallel and what 16850 cell is of 4200 mAh capacity...

IMG_20201110_161546-01.jpeg
 
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