250W E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms 250W hub motors

kmccune

Active Member
I wrote an article where you can read that a mid-drive motor hardly outperforms a hub motor.

In practice there is no significant difference in performance. You can clearly experience this yourself during test drives with both kind of motors, I did this myself too. Because I wanted to know the cause, I researched this subject extensively. The conclusion is that the advantage of mid-drive motors is only noticeable in extreme situations, on steep slopes while the cyclist pedals only a little or not.

I would like to know how others think about this.
Justin would probably agree, let me say this- the mid-drives probably require more"mindfulness" and every rider does not want that,I do believe they are the better choice for EMTB.
 

kmccune

Active Member
Hi members, thanks for your comments, in the meantime, I have eliminated some ambiguities in my article
  • This article handles about ebikes up to 250W (which are allowed in Europe without a license). This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.
  • This article is only about the motor itself, without the software. At mid drive motors, the software has a major influence on the motor behavior.
Size matters, some of these hub motors are real beasts when they have room to grow.
 

kmccune

Active Member
I think maybe a lot of that might have to do with available sophistication of the software used for the vast majority of the hub drives sold, no?

I'm pretty sure that if the geared hub software were replaced by something with the sophistication available on many mid drives that may change.

A lot of "what if's" to play for sure, but I believe the fact remains the 2 drive types (geared hub vs. mid drive) can't play on the same level unless they are both running decent software. There's stuff available on the aftermarket that just transform a hub drive. I think there are many that have no idea.....
I agree, one day before long you will see Hub motors with at least a 2 spd range( the diminutive size of the little beastly mid drives is so appealing- lets keep them all! My companies excavators are not backdumps and the backdumps are not excavators{apples to oranges so to speak}
What surprised Me was how much grunt a geared Bafang had if you just got the wheel to move a fraction( liked its watts though)
 

kmccune

Active Member
No I was using geared hubs. A DD motor is the same though: powers thru the axle so it is effectively single-speed.

Somewhere out there, there is a hub motor with a 2-speed reduction. Luna used to sell them. Seemed like a really neat idea but while the motors were apparently well made the public never warmed up to them and they went away.
Sorry ,I didn't "plagiarize" you I made my comment before I read your post."Necessity is the mother of invention"-its sort of like the emission standards that Automakers claimed would be impossible to meet and bankrupt them after all was said and done the consumer benefited.
There are a lot of benefits that come from research, taxpayer-funded and private{its the market enough People squawk, the market responds, Capitalism is a wonderful thing when the manufacturers are not allowed to become complacent}
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
The simulations are only valid for motors up to 250W. As we use in Europe for driving witout licence. This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.
All due respect for your efforts, but results for tests on 250w systems, especially hub driven, while interesting maybe to some, are not real relevant stateside.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
Total BS !! Buy a quality hub motor 1st then you'll agree that that is total brainwashing. A good TQ sensor and controller is essential.

But first we shouls just assume that the test is equal:

A quality hub drive vs middrive( by default alltough i dislike them all mid drive motors are good or very good). Not the same for hub drive ebikes. Some r trash, some r excellent.

On my japanese Dapu hub motor on a steep road or anything above a 5% incline i could do if i want anywhere from 85-115rpm.

The lesson is: u have to smoothly pedal the bike or ebike , not just grind the gears and xpect the motor to push u. Chainrings/Chain+cassette change @ 7-8000miles; and at any Pas level the assistance kicks in smootly maintaining the speed or increasing it if i go with a harder gear ; of course the higher the assit , the more responsive the motor is.

Also a new Bosch motor is about 1.2k maybe 1500$ for a Performance line gen. 4.

That's about 4or 5 of 750watts Dapu motors or any high end hub motors. Makes sense why they want everyone on middrives , shareholders also demand it 😉
yes I have head that the dapu u=hubs are good but they are not exactly found much in the wild. I had a dapu mid drive it was ok but not as good as my bosch. I did not say you cant spend on a hub drive bit with the less gears on the rear cluster and the lack of a torque sensor makes it less then ideal to spin on most hub driven bikes. most people I have seen do not smoothly pedal they go so slow that the motor is doing most of the work. I love to pass those people.
 

avandalen

New Member
I agree, one day before long you will see Hub motors with at least a 2 spd range( the diminutive size of the little beastly mid drives is so appealing- lets keep them all! My companies excavators are not backdumps and the backdumps are not excavators{apples to oranges so to speak}
What surprised Me was how much grunt a geared Bafang had if you just got the wheel to move a fraction( liked its watts though)
I like the 2-speed concept, but the 2-speed Suzhou Xiongda Motor YTWS-01 has a weigth of 3.2kg, which is idiot.
 

Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
There is something called thru axle that is on most quality hub drives nowadays .

That's about 15-18 seconds of removing the wheel .

But , it's 2021 now and there are less then 11 brands with hub motors and out of those 11 only 2 or 3 of them are really good( WW, Luna , Galiano, Surface, Sondors , NCM , Juiced, Alation, Biktrix , Ride1up and maybe stromer if it didn't went out of business in US, hv. 2 check !

Upcoming brand Zen with Shakti has potential and a loot of room to grow.

S0, Naturally because there are so many more brands with middrives there will be aA lot more people here on EBR posting reviews and posting photos with middrive ebikes because that's what the market gives us. But that does not imply that a middrive is 1000$ better.

Which hub motors come with a thru axle? The only one I know of is the GMAC. Other than that I thought most hub motors came with a solid axle that has been ground flat on two ends to prevent the motor from twisting in the dropouts. The GMAC uses a torque arm instead and quite a beefy one, but who else does this?
 

RunForTheHills

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Which hub motors come with a thru axle? The only one I know of is the GMAC. Other than that I thought most hub motors came with a solid axle that has been ground flat on two ends to prevent the motor from twisting in the dropouts. The GMAC uses a torque arm instead and quite a beefy one, but who else does this?
The GMAC doesn't have a thru axle. It has a solid 10mm axle without the flats. You are probably thinking of the Grin All Axle motor.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Which hub motors come with a thru axle? The only one I know of is the GMAC. Other than that I thought most hub motors came with a solid axle that has been ground flat on two ends to prevent the motor from twisting in the dropouts. The GMAC uses a torque arm instead and quite a beefy one, but who else does this?
Actually the GMACs are not thru axle. They are solid axles with flats and they DO have an integrated torque arm, but that is only because Grin developed a proprietary arm specific to that motor. Ordinarily torque arms are a separate purchase,which has resulted in some real tragedies coming from newbie builders. A lot of production ebikes don't use them because their motors aren't powerful enough to need them; instead relying on tabbed washers that obstruct the dropout, and axle flats that hopefully freeze the axle in the dropouts; meaning the dropouts need to be strong (or else).

On the thru axle, you are thinking of the Grin All Axle motors and those are alone/unique in their support for thru axle in the industry although I'd be happy to be wrong. I'm not a fan of them because to service the motor you have to ... disassemble the *wheel*. There is no cover plate per se... the spokes have to be removed and then the wheel rebuilt after the motor goes back together. They are direct drive motors so unlikely to need service, but having to destroy a professional wheel build if I ever have to do so made them a 'hell no' for me.
 

kmccune

Active Member
I like the 2-speed concept, but the 2-speed Suzhou Xiongda Motor YTWS-01 has a weigth of 3.2kg, which is idiot.
I think some of the bigger motors approach that weight, when Justin gets it figured out there will probably be little weight penalty.
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
the lack of a torque sensor makes it less then ideal to spin on most hub driven bikes.
Yes, i agree . Now, that really shows that there is a market for a nice , higher end hub motor ebike.
Aventon has some okay models with an almost good enough finish, paint, welds, but low end components , still it's only 1.6k.
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
Can one buy a bike with a Dapu motor or is it a DIY affair?
From what i know, Evelo and Pedego are using them. There could be others.

Update- This used to be on Dapu, it's on Bafang, a great bulletproof ebike though !!


Pedego still has 3 or 4 models on Dapu !


But if u use a thorn proof tube , this is the best(https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008ZTKYMW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), i've tried a few , and a good or v. Good tire(Specialized electrak 2.0 is the best rear tire for commuting imo) , u'll never have a flat unless u go riding on rocks, mtn. trails. or don't change the tire when needed.



Here's a comp. of hub motors , an older article : https://ebikereviewer.com/index.php...-and-comparison-bafang-dapu-shengyi-and-more/

Good site btw. ! This Aventon rocks , can't believe it's so cheap...


So, for about 4.3k (2699$+1599$) , one can get 2 good ebikes : Evelo Aurora hub+ Aventon level !!

Evelo also has 4year warranty ( the only ebike brand to offer this for motor/controller/battery and 100% 5stars reviews on the Aurora hub. And they offer a 21day at home trial .
 

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ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
My Hub Cruiser is pretty powerful for a hub bike,it peaks at 1000w and even if I limit my middrive bike to750watts it still out performes my hub bike on any type of incline, large or small,just downshift and go
 

Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
Wow, that is something I didn't expect. I mean 1,000 watts is a lot of power. Still, I would think putting 750 watts through a drivetrain will wear it out pretty fast.

Everyone has their preferences, and I generally prefer smaller, lighter motors so mid-drive seems to work well for me. But if I wanted big power I think I'd go hub drive. But this is coming from a guy who just bought a new bike that has motors so small that all they do is move the derailleurs and don't help propel the bike at all.