6-sensor technology

Maineiac

Member
Region
USA
So Giant/Momentum offers 6-sensor technology on some of their ebikes. In addition to torque, speed, motor, and pedal rotation sensors, they also have slope detection and accelerometer sensors. Is anyone familiar with this? Does it really work well or is it overkill? This how Giant explains it:

“Giant’s new PedalPlus 6-sensor technology is used in combination with the SyncDrive Life motor technology and features an additional slope detection sensor and accelerometer. While the PedalPlus 6-sensor technology can detect slopes, it also offers an autosupport mode function, which helps riders experience a more effortless ride experience. This new sensor technology calculates the amount of torque, cadence, slope and speed and, based on these calculations, determines the amount of motor output the rider needs.”
 

PDoz

Well-Known Member
On my syncdrive pro ( pwx2) , It works in the auto mode but there is a slight delay in response to hills - about 1or 2 pedal strokes. It'd be really nice for cruising easy trails, but imho it is too slow / unpredictable for tight technical terrain. As an example, I have a steep dam wall, about 12 foot high, if I start at the base the first 1/2 pedal stroke feels like eco, then by the second stroke it feels like full power (limited to 250% boost rather than 360% ) .
 

Maineiac

Member
Region
USA
PDoz, thanks for the info. So I wonder why auto mode would limit you to 250% boost? I read that the motor support can be fine-tuned, but maybe not in auto mode? How do you like that Yamaha motor overall. I test rode a Momentum Vida + and found the motor to be pretty smooth and relatively quiet.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
It think it funny how the programmers think they will eventually invent a pedal-assist system that actually performs better than a throttle. They just keep adding more sensors and more complexity but hey there are riders that drink that koolaid. I just prefer to have control of the assist myself.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
It think it funny how the programmers think they will eventually invent a pedal-assist system that actually performs better than a throttle. They just keep adding more sensors and more complexity but hey there are riders that drink that koolaid. I just prefer to have control of the assist myself.
t=right constantly tru=ing to adjust assist levels with the throttle on a 60 mile ride sounds real fin. even more f=un I the rain or with gloves on. no thanks.
 

TNC

Member
Region
USA
It think it funny how the programmers think they will eventually invent a pedal-assist system that actually performs better than a throttle. They just keep adding more sensors and more complexity but hey there are riders that drink that koolaid. I just prefer to have control of the assist myself.
While I think an ebike/emtb with a throttle is a great option, I think the programming of these motors should be available to the user. Even though my BBSHD doesn't have torque sensing, the available programming makes is a very tailorable power delivery for those willing to pursue it. This should be the option every one of these motors should have whether factory or conversion. Just having power levels isn't enough IMO. I use mine for fairly serious mountain biking, and as I learned more and more about the power delivery and the application of a motor for mountain biking, my preferences changed as I became more accustomed to riding an emtb. At first I didn't want overrun...now I do. At first I wanted brake sensors...now I don't. At first I wanted very soft acceleration in PAS...now I wanted a little more zipp. Some of these parameters are programmable, and it's highly beneficial IMO when you can fine tune the elements to suit you.

I have a pickup and a motorcycle that have programmable tuners installed that allow manipulation of fuel/air mixtures and other elements. They are extremely useful...towing or empty for the pickup...performance runs or mileage efficiency for the motorcycle...as some examples. All this said, I understand the trepidation and/or liability that some of these manufacturers fear when letting just any bozo tweak on their motors, but to me this is ultimate pinnacle of user application and satisfaction. No, I'm not holding my breath for this to be a widespread reality and am fully prepared to be disappointed as we go forward with more controls from the manufacturers and even governmental entities.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
t=right constantly tru=ing to adjust assist levels with the throttle on a 60 mile ride sounds real fin. even more f=un I the rain or with gloves on. no thanks.
Do you own a car with a gas pedal? You are adjusting assist levels constantly unless you put in cruise mode (which by the way some ebike controllers have) which makes more sense to me that having 6 input parameters determining the assist level assumed by most likely an overweight programmer that has never ridden an ebike. I understand that pedal-assist makes the bike riding feel a bit more like bike riding a traditional bike but that seems more like marketing mumbo-jumbo that real merit.

My opinion is as much based on operational simplicity as anything and I prefer to think my brain is simply better at tweaking the assist via a throttle than any sensor-based program will ever be. If there were ebike races with restriction on peak motor power / torque do you think any rider would want a assist program over a throttle?
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
While I think an ebike/emtb with a throttle is a great option, I think the programming of these motors should be available to the user. Even though my BBSHD doesn't have torque sensing, the available programming makes is a very tailorable power delivery for those willing to pursue it. This should be the option every one of these motors should have whether factory or conversion. Just having power levels isn't enough IMO. I use mine for fairly serious mountain biking, and as I learned more and more about the power delivery and the application of a motor for mountain biking, my preferences changed as I became more accustomed to riding an emtb. At first I didn't want overrun...now I do. At first I wanted brake sensors...now I don't. At first I wanted very soft acceleration in PAS...now I wanted a little more zipp. Some of these parameters are programmable, and it's highly beneficial IMO when you can fine tune the elements to suit you.

I have a pickup and a motorcycle that have programmable tuners installed that allow manipulation of fuel/air mixtures and other elements. They are extremely useful...towing or empty for the pickup...performance runs or mileage efficiency for the motorcycle...as some examples. All this said, I understand the trepidation and/or liability that some of these manufacturers fear when letting just any bozo tweak on their motors, but to me this is ultimate pinnacle of user application and satisfaction. No, I'm not holding my breath for this to be a widespread reality and am fully prepared to be disappointed as we go forward with more controls from the manufacturers and even governmental entities.

The large drive system manufacturers like Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, and Brose are unlikely to give full programming access to the buyer unless they decide to eliminate the warranties.

To me nothing provided more tailor made power delivery than I had on my 120hp motorcycle with a throttle. I would not want a programmer thinking they were better than my brain while riding a motorcycle with that much power. Even on my 1hp / 750W ebike I think I simply can establish the assist I want for all riding situations better than a programmer can regardless of how many input parameters they are provided.

If you have ever talked to someone that actually programs ebikes you will quickly discover they have some pretty significant egos and they think they can do better than the rider. Maybe some brain-dead riders but not anyone that has even moderate skills on an ebike.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
Do you own a car with a gas pedal? You are adjusting assist levels constantly unless you put in cruise mode (which by the way some ebike controllers have) which makes more sense to me that having 6 input parameters determining the assist level assumed by most likely an overweight programmer that has never ridden an ebike. I understand that pedal-assist makes the bike riding feel a bit more like bike riding a traditional bike but that seems more like marketing mumbo-jumbo that real merit.

My opinion is as much based on operational simplicity as anything and I prefer to think my brain is simply better at tweaking the assist via a throttle than any sensor-based program will ever be. If there were ebike races with restriction on peak motor power / torque do you think any rider would want a assist program over a throttle?
actually I dont my feet and legs are my gas pedal and the torque sensor controls the power so I dont have too. on my bosch is is seamless and you dont feel the power unless your have assistance cranked up and your not working hard. You need to get on a good mid drive and see. it feel exactly like a bike but easier. Want to focus on riding not on trying to adjust the assist levels constantly.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
actually I dont my feet and leg are my gas pedal and the torque sensor controls the power so I dont have too. on my bosch is is seamless and you dont feel the power unless your have assistance cranked up and your not working hard. You need to get on a good mid drive and see. it feel exactly like a bike but easier. Want to focus on riding not on trying to adjust the assist levels constantly.
I have Haibike models with Bosch and Yamaha mid drives and a custom model with a new Bafang m600 mid drive. Yes the pedal-assist programming on all of them is nice and for the most part feels natural but there are enough situations that benefit from being under throttle control I'd just do away with the pedal-assist all together. Like I said it's as much about simplicity as I'm an engineering and I know the more sensors there are the less reliable a system will be. I don't want to have to buy a new Bosch motor because the torque sensor failed (some claim that the calibration of the torque sensors can shift over time impacting assist level provided).

I certainly don't think the industry is going to abandon the pedal-assist systems because in general most riders don't really want to think while riding so a throttle will not be preferred by many.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I have Haibike models with Bosch and Yamaha mid drives and a custom model with a new Bafang m600 mid drive. Yes the pedal-assist programming on all of them is nice and for the most part feels natural but there are enough situations that benefit from being under throttle control I'd just do away with the pedal-assist all together. Like I said it's as much about simplicity as I'm an engineering and I know the more sensors there are the less reliable a system will be. I don't want to have to buy a new Bosch motor because the torque sensor failed (some claim that the calibration of the torque sensors can shift over time impacting assist level provided).

I certainly don't think the industry is going to abandon the pedal-assist systems because in general most riders don't really want to think while riding so a throttle will not be preferred by many.
well your more likely to have a throttle fail when using it a lot. plus al that extra juice you use. we have gone mountain biking with our e tandem never found a need fo a throttle. well once in awhile on a super steep hill its hard to start but thats not very often.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
well your more likely to have a throttle fail when using it a lot. plus al that extra juice you use. we have gone mountain biking with our e tandem never found a need fo a throttle. well once in awhile on a super steep hill its hard to start but thats not very often.
An ebike throttle just varies the voltage level to the controller. Not much to go wrong but even if that happens a new throttle is $10 and 5 minutes to install. Keep in that that is just one parameter to the controller vs up to 6 or more for these pedal-assist systems that seem to relish is claiming they have more parameters being utilized by the programs as if that automatically improves the result for the rider. Please understand I'm just bringing this up so we don't all just drink the marketing koolaid.

How many of us trust the auto-driving cars right now? Those that have seem to have one thing in common...they are not around any more.
 

TNC

Member
Region
USA
The large drive system manufacturers like Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, and Brose are unlikely to give full programming access to the buyer unless they decide to eliminate the warranties.

To me nothing provided more tailor made power delivery than I had on my 120hp motorcycle with a throttle. I would not want a programmer thinking they were better than my brain while riding a motorcycle with that much power. Even on my 1hp / 750W ebike I think I simply can establish the assist I want for all riding situations better than a programmer can regardless of how many input parameters they are provided.

If you have ever talked to someone that actually programs ebikes you will quickly discover they have some pretty significant egos and they think they can do better than the rider. Maybe some brain-dead riders but not anyone that has even moderate skills on an ebike.
Yes, I realize that the major manufacturers of motors for factory ebikes like Trek, Spec, etc. are unlikely to ever release the programming capability to the public, and I think I said that in my post. I do think you're missing a notable segment of the fun of a bicycle by poo-pooing the element of pedaling with a well tuned PAS and relying primarily on throttle. You mention motorcycles. I've been a motorcycle guy since 1970 and work part time at a motorcycle shop as a mechanic...have two motorcycles parked in the shop right now...one dirt bike and one street bike. If I wanted throttle-only use I'd just go ride one of them. Pedaling an MTB conversion or factory emtb on an actual trail is a whole other type of fun. There is no one-size-fits-all.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Yes, I realize that the major manufacturers of motors for factory ebikes like Trek, Spec, etc. are unlikely to ever release the programming capability to the public, and I think I said that in my post. I do think you're missing a notable segment of the fun of a bicycle by poo-pooing the element of pedaling with a well tuned PAS and relying primarily on throttle. You mention motorcycles. I've been a motorcycle guy since 1970 and work part time at a motorcycle shop as a mechanic...have two motorcycles parked in the shop right now...one dirt bike and one street bike. If I wanted throttle-only use I'd just go ride one of them. Pedaling an MTB conversion or factory emtb on an actual trail is a whole other type of fun. There is no one-size-fits-all.
I don't disagree except to say that a throttle-assist ebike does not prevent experiencing the same sensation as you get with a pedal-assist ebike. I don't assume that when using a throttle the rider is never pedaling. I like the way a pedal-assist drive system makes you feel like superman but that sensation comes at the cost and complexity of sensors and programming that actually has issues with providing the assist you may want at all times. I know my Haibike with the original Yamaha PX drive is a bit off when you down shift going up a hill (it seems to sense the reduced pedal pressure and drops the assist on a downshift such that you end up having to pedal harder after the down shift which is not how a traditional bike behaves. I found downshifting two gears improved this issue.

That said the simplicity of a throttle-assist ebike is just more compelling to me because I'd rather not pay for all the sensors or the future maintenance they will create (I've read about torque sensor drift of calibration over time).

I also tend to focus my attention on urban mobility ebikes which are more likely to benefit from just having throttle-assist.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
General thought:
Users who praise cheap throttle based e-bike systems against modern multi-sensor ones resemble die-hards who are in love with huge engine carburettor based cars of 1950s and bash the most modern automotive solutions.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
General thought:
Users who praise cheap throttle based e-bike systems against modern multi-sensor ones resemble die-hards who are in love with huge engine carburettor based cars of 1950s and bash the most modern automotive solutions.
Another "general thought". Fuel injection is nice until it isn't. Clearly you've never had to deal with a balky FI system on your own. And as you brought it up, lets discuss the price of ANY fuel injection component (thinking price of proprietary e-bike parts, IF they're even available, is a fair comparison) ..... or what qualified personnel get to work on them.

Point being, when it comes to DIY, KISS rules!
-Die Hard DIY'er