A Battery Standard?

007vsMagua

New Member
The more I research eBikes the more I'm thinking about batteries. I've been involved in the remodeling business for almost 40 years and I've used every type of cordless battery tool that has come along. I can understand why cordless tool makers would want to use proprietary batteries with their designs and when I'm only spending $80.00 ~ $200.00 for a tool, it's not that big a deal. After a couple of years of use that tool can easily be replaced. What concerns me is spending at least 10 to 50 times as much money on another tool that I'm not sure will be around three years from now.

I think it would be a good idea for the eBike industry to come together to develop a battery standard. The standard placement for the battery should be on the downtube. Maybe a smaller compartment for the 36v batteries and a larger compartment for the 48v batteries...all the same standardized size. Batteries can differ by amps and quality and you get what you pay for.

These are just a few of my BrainDroppings as George Carlin would say.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Not only is availability an issue a few years down the line but prices are high since manufacturers have a monopoly on proprietary batteries. You're already seeing some 4-5 year old e-bike batteries that are no longer supported by their manufacturer. I have a Juiced Bikes Cross Current that uses the same battery design that I've seen in probably a dozen other bikes (plus no-name Alibaba bikes.) So I'm less concerned about its availability in the future.

 

SuperGoop

Active Member
Yes, I am noticing this new tube-design batteries on more-and-more ebikes, but although they look similar, they appear to be different lengths. I wonder how compatible they are with different manufacturers, and whether the plugs and sockets are the same.
 

J.R.

Well-Known Member
I like the CC'S battery, ProdecoTech and E-Joe have been using 'similar' batteries for almost 2 years. Unfortunately the specs are all very different. Incorporated systems for power application are very different as well, some torque sensing, some cadence and some just throttle. That indicates the controllers and connections are different. The manufactures have to agree on a standard and the 2+ years I've been an ebiker, I've seen more proprietary systems marketed not less.

The good news is there are more companies rebuilding ebike batteries. There are several experienced companies in the U.S. now, where there were none just a few years ago. That's where I have my hopes for sustainability.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Incorporated systems for power application are very different as well, some torque sensing, some cadence and some just throttle. That indicates the controllers and connections are different.

The Cross Current battery only has two pins so, if the voltage is the same, the batteries should be interchangeable. The controller and torque sensor are separate components. They do appear to be different length batteries depending on the bike but I wasn't sure if it was an optical illusion and/or how many different lengths are out there (maybe only 2?)
 

SuperGoop

Active Member
@Dunbar , my new Voltbike Yukon 750 should be arriving soon. Let's share some photos and measurements of the battery (including the plug, etc.) to see if it is at least "physically" possible to swap them. It'll be good if they can, because it would mean more competition (less proprietary), cheaper prices, and less anxiety that the battery will be discontinued in a few years.
 

J.R.

Well-Known Member
The Cross Current battery only has two pins so, if the voltage is the same, the batteries should be interchangeable. The controller and torque sensor are separate components. They do appear to be different length batteries depending on the bike but I wasn't sure if it was an optical illusion and/or how many different lengths are out there (maybe only 2?)
+/- yes, but the battery connection to the bike, the wiring harness from there branches to what connections on each bikes controller? My ProdecoTech is as simple as a +/-, but my BH that is a more sophisticated system has 5 pin wiring harness from the battery connection. Having had to personally replace my controller on the BH, I've had the opportunity to see all the internals. I hope yours is as easy as size and connector. It sure would be nice to hear from the brands themselves.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
With two pins it wouldn't really matter where the wiring harness goes from there. The only thing they could change is which pins is + or - which I kind of doubt any bike manufacturer would as it sort of defeats the purpose of going with an open standard. The Cross Current even has the USB port at the bottom that doesn't work because it would cost too much to remove it according to Juiced Bikes. I believe that the controller on the Cross Current is mounted above the battery FWIW (above the removable top plate/latch.)

 

007vsMagua

New Member
I didn't realize my thread had so many replies. I haven't been notified by email and I should have been. Thanks for the conversation. Below I'll deposit a few more droppings.

I really like the CrossCurrent design and the only problem I have with it is the hub motor. Gears just don't work for me. They are prone to wear out and the gear axles needs constant lubrication. The other problem I have with geared hub motors is that I'm not sure they are brushless motors or brushed motors. It they are brushed motors then that's another weak point. I'm only considering brushless/gearless hub motors. That is the motor of the future. With the right software and a remote voltage regulator, a brushless/gearless motor is the smartest system out there. With a remote voltage regulator the battery can just be the battery.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Most of the current crop of hub motors are brushless. That includes the Bafang motor in the Cross Current. I do think that direct drive hub motors are the simplest design out there which means less stuff that can break or wear out. When you say gears I don't know if you mean a geared hub motor or a shifter and derailleur setup. The nylon gears in geared hub motors do strike me as a weak point but most of the mid-drive systems out there use nylon gears and they are subjected to higher forces than a hub motor. I have never lubricated a gear axle in my 40k+ miles of cycling.
 

007vsMagua

New Member
Most of the current crop of hub motors are brushless. That includes the Bafang motor in the Cross Current. I do think that direct drive hub motors are the simplest design out there which means less stuff that can break or wear out. When you say gears I don't know if you mean a geared hub motor or a shifter and derailleur setup. The nylon gears in geared hub motors do strike me as a weak point but most of the mid-drive systems out there use nylon gears and they are subjected to higher forces than a hub motor. I have never lubricated a gear axle in my 40k+ miles of cycling.

Thanks Dunbar, I went to Bafang's well developed website and will look more closely at their motor. In my opening post I mentioned my experience with cordless tools, and on further thought all of those tool were geared tools and they would still work if I could replace the battery. So maybe I shouldn't rule out a geared hub motor. Like all things (except maybe a battery) a motor can be replace.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
Most of the current crop of hub motors are brushless. That includes the Bafang motor in the Cross Current. I do think that direct drive hub motors are the simplest design out there which means less stuff that can break or wear out. When you say gears I don't know if you mean a geared hub motor or a shifter and derailleur setup. The nylon gears in geared hub motors do strike me as a weak point but most of the mid-drive systems out there use nylon gears and they are subjected to higher forces than a hub motor. I have never lubricated a gear axle in my 40k+ miles of cycling.


My understanding is that mid drive motors are the smallest and least powerful of any of the motor types. They use a significant gear reduction to achieve their torque but are less powerful than hub motors.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Mid drives are smaller and spin at a higher speed for more efficiency. However, the output of the mid drive gets the geared down to a slower RPM to spin the rear wheel so you end up with the same torque as you would with a hub motor at the same power. With the mid drive some of the gearing is going to have to withstand the combination of the rider power + the motor power. That isn't the case on a hub motor.
 
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MLB

Well-Known Member
Yes, the output of the MOTOR is less powerful than the other types. There is less copper and less steel(iron?) in a mid drive. Gearing ups the torque.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't agree that they are less powerful. You have some mid drives that put out a lot of torque at the crank. Power, in the case of electric motors, is a function of how many watts the controller outputs to them.

I know turboprop engines in aircraft that spin at very high RPM's and don't make a lot of torque. The power shaft is run through a reduction gearbox to slow the RPM down for the propeller. What you end up with is huge amounts of torque at the propeller (several thousand foot pounds in some cases.)
 

dm nelson

Active Member
Nice how that battery pack integrates with the frame. Interesting that it's using the same charger supplied with my Radrover.