A Little Self Indulgent Comparison Test

Saratoga Dave

Well-Known Member
No great wisdom here, but we’re a friendly bunch and it’s a quiet Sunday. A little Giant/Yamaha shootout for the fans:


For a little informal comparison, I rode the same 31 mile, 1200 foot elevation route 2 days in a row. Both days very humid, high around 90 degrees, winds no more than 5 mph. Went at my usual comfortable pace, riding almost always in Eco (the base mode in my 3 assist level Giant Toughroad, the second mode in the four level Yamaha Civante, which has a very low assist eco+ as the first level). Next level Normal (Giant), Standard (Yamaha) for the two significant climbs, never into the top assist.

Interesting! The gravel Giant, with 50mm gravel tires, ended up using less battery, and I had a very slightly higher average speed and five minutes quicker elapsed time than the road bike Civante. Again, I was just riding my bike, and I expected them to be close, but it was funny that the bigger and heavier bike was more efficient.

Both of these run Yamaha motors, both have 500Wh batteries. The Giant has 4300 miles on it, the Civante is only two weeks old.


And the ride? By the numbers? (Check Dustin Klein’s great YouTube channel)

Giant showed 58% battery remaining, ride time was 2:03 minutes at 15.1 mph. Yamaha had 49% remaining, 2:08 minutes at 14.5 mph.

Also interesting, the Giant shows 53 miles of range left at Eco, while the Yamaha shows 23 at it’s version of Eco. Now I know damn well the Giant is lying, since I have learned the range falls out of bed below 20% charge... haven’t figured out Yamaha’s shtick yet on this.

I know the assist levels on the Yamaha are 50% Eco+, 100% Eco, 190% Standard, and 280% High. I can no longer find the numbers for the Giant, though I believe the equivalent High percentage is more like 350 or 360%.

I very much like riding both bikes, depending on my mood or trip plan on any given day. I’m so impressed by that damn ToughRoad though, who’d a thunk it? This particular ride is equal parts paved bike path and paved roads. Even with those big whining tires, it held it’s ground to this upstart road bike. Get off into the bushes and it’s game over in ten feet. Nice job, Giant!

We can also state that for “real” road riding, that class 3 Civante will outrun the other bike in a heartbeat just by going to Standard and chewing up the miles. That’s for another day.
 
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Buckdubay

Well-Known Member
No great wisdom here, but we’re a friendly bunch and it’s a quiet Sunday. A little Giant/Yamaha shootout for the fans:


For a little informal comparison, I rode the same 31 mile, 1200 foot elevation route 2 days in a row. Both days very humid, high around 90 degrees, winds no more than 5 mph. Went at my usual comfortable pace, riding almost always in Eco (the base mode in my 3 assist level Giant Toughroad, the second mode in the four level Yamaha Civante, which has a very low assist eco+ as the first level). Next level Normal (Giant), Standard (Yamaha) for the two significant climbs, never into the top assist.

Interesting! The gravel Giant, with 50mm gravel tires, ended up using less battery, and I had a very slightly higher average speed and five minutes quicker elapsed time than the road bike Civante. Again, I was just riding my bike, and I expected them to be close, but it was funny that the bigger and heavier bike was more efficient.

Both of these run Yamaha motors, both have 500Wh batteries. The Giant has 4300 miles on it, the Civante is only two weeks old.


And the ride? By the numbers? (Check Dustin Klein’s great YouTube channel)

Giant showed 58% battery remaining, ride time was 2:03 minutes at 15.1 mph. Yamaha had 49% remaining, 2:08 minutes at 14.5 mph.

Also interesting, the Giant shows 53 miles of range left at Eco, while the Yamaha shows 23 at it’s version of Eco. Now I know damn well the Giant is lying, since I have learned the range falls out of bed below 20% charge... haven’t figured out Yamaha’s shtick yet on this.

I know the assist levels on the Yamaha are 50% Eco+, 100% Eco, 190% Standard, and 280% High. I can no longer find the numbers for the Giant, though I believe the equivalent High percentage is more like 350 or 360%.

I very much like riding both bikes, depending on my mood or trip plan on any given day. I’m so impressed by that damn ToughRoad though, who’d a thunk it? This particular ride is equal parts paved bike path and paved roads. Even with those big whining tires, it held it’s ground to this upstart road bike. Get off into the bushes and it’s game over in ten feet. Nice job, Giant!

We can also state that for “real” road riding, that class 3 Civante will outrun the other bike in a heartbeat just by going to Standard and chewing up the miles. That’s for another day.
The Toughroad is a fantastic bike. I have not run into the 20% battery pitfall yet. Usually back close to home by that point. I love the big tires give a super stable ride at higher speeds. I regularly run my bike 45 to 55 miles (mostly on eco) with battery to spare.
 

Saratoga Dave

Well-Known Member
<<I have not run into the 20% battery pitfall yet>>

You will, probably at the bottom of that hill going up from the lake through Moriah. You know, a nice easy Adirondack spot :)

You‘re right though, I‘ve never had a bike that was so all around competent.
 

Saratoga Dave

Well-Known Member
Hey JRA

Klein always ends every video with that “And the ride? By the numbers?” bit. I love his videos for the energy and the great crew of people involved in their rides. I may be an old grouchy bastard, but I appreciate the stuff this kid puts out and love his attitude.
 
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Reactions: JRA

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
No great wisdom here, but we’re a friendly bunch and it’s a quiet Sunday. A little Giant/Yamaha shootout for the fans:


For a little informal comparison, I rode the same 31 mile, 1200 foot elevation route 2 days in a row. Both days very humid, high around 90 degrees, winds no more than 5 mph. Went at my usual comfortable pace, riding almost always in Eco (the base mode in my 3 assist level Giant Toughroad, the second mode in the four level Yamaha Civante, which has a very low assist eco+ as the first level). Next level Normal (Giant), Standard (Yamaha) for the two significant climbs, never into the top assist.

Interesting! The gravel Giant, with 50mm gravel tires, ended up using less battery, and I had a very slightly higher average speed and five minutes quicker elapsed time than the road bike Civante. Again, I was just riding my bike, and I expected them to be close, but it was funny that the bigger and heavier bike was more efficient.

Both of these run Yamaha motors, both have 500Wh batteries. The Giant has 4300 miles on it, the Civante is only two weeks old.


And the ride? By the numbers? (Check Dustin Klein’s great YouTube channel)

Giant showed 58% battery remaining, ride time was 2:03 minutes at 15.1 mph. Yamaha had 49% remaining, 2:08 minutes at 14.5 mph.

Also interesting, the Giant shows 53 miles of range left at Eco, while the Yamaha shows 23 at it’s version of Eco. Now I know damn well the Giant is lying, since I have learned the range falls out of bed below 20% charge... haven’t figured out Yamaha’s shtick yet on this.

I know the assist levels on the Yamaha are 50% Eco+, 100% Eco, 190% Standard, and 280% High. I can no longer find the numbers for the Giant, though I believe the equivalent High percentage is more like 350 or 360%.

I very much like riding both bikes, depending on my mood or trip plan on any given day. I’m so impressed by that damn ToughRoad though, who’d a thunk it? This particular ride is equal parts paved bike path and paved roads. Even with those big whining tires, it held it’s ground to this upstart road bike. Get off into the bushes and it’s game over in ten feet. Nice job, Giant!

We can also state that for “real” road riding, that class 3 Civante will outrun the other bike in a heartbeat just by going to Standard and chewing up the miles. That’s for another day.

Great comparo... thanks for sharing.
 
I was not aware of that channel, looks like a good one! Not sure if you know this one, but you might also enjoy Russ and Laura at Path Less Pedaled. Less of the serious stuff and more about riding your bike at "party pace." Many years ago he also ran the Epicurean Cyclist, which was even more retrogrouch. Plus, he recently reviewed a Rivendell, which would definitely be one of my dream bikes.


50+ miles out of the Civante is much less than what I wanted to hear. I wonder how much more you could eke out of it just leaving it in Eco+ (the lowest setting)?
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
No great wisdom here, but we’re a friendly bunch and it’s a quiet Sunday. A little Giant/Yamaha shootout for the fans:


For a little informal comparison, I rode the same 31 mile, 1200 foot elevation route 2 days in a row. Both days very humid, high around 90 degrees, winds no more than 5 mph. Went at my usual comfortable pace, riding almost always in Eco (the base mode in my 3 assist level Giant Toughroad, the second mode in the four level Yamaha Civante, which has a very low assist eco+ as the first level). Next level Normal (Giant), Standard (Yamaha) for the two significant climbs, never into the top assist.

Interesting! The gravel Giant, with 50mm gravel tires, ended up using less battery, and I had a very slightly higher average speed and five minutes quicker elapsed time than the road bike Civante. Again, I was just riding my bike, and I expected them to be close, but it was funny that the bigger and heavier bike was more efficient.

Both of these run Yamaha motors, both have 500Wh batteries. The Giant has 4300 miles on it, the Civante is only two weeks old.


And the ride? By the numbers? (Check Dustin Klein’s great YouTube channel)

Giant showed 58% battery remaining, ride time was 2:03 minutes at 15.1 mph. Yamaha had 49% remaining, 2:08 minutes at 14.5 mph.

Also interesting, the Giant shows 53 miles of range left at Eco, while the Yamaha shows 23 at it’s version of Eco. Now I know damn well the Giant is lying, since I have learned the range falls out of bed below 20% charge... haven’t figured out Yamaha’s shtick yet on this.

I know the assist levels on the Yamaha are 50% Eco+, 100% Eco, 190% Standard, and 280% High. I can no longer find the numbers for the Giant, though I believe the equivalent High percentage is more like 350 or 360%.

I very much like riding both bikes, depending on my mood or trip plan on any given day. I’m so impressed by that damn ToughRoad though, who’d a thunk it? This particular ride is equal parts paved bike path and paved roads. Even with those big whining tires, it held it’s ground to this upstart road bike. Get off into the bushes and it’s game over in ten feet. Nice job, Giant!

We can also state that for “real” road riding, that class 3 Civante will outrun the other bike in a heartbeat just by going to Standard and chewing up the miles. That’s for another day.
It is interesting that the Giant used less battery for the same task. I noticed the Giant bikes level of support are off by one. For example, if on the Civante Eco+ has a support level of 50%, on the Giant it has 80%. On Standard (3rd level) for the Civante, it has a level of support of 190%. I think Standard is the equivalent to Giants Normal (2nd) level, it has a 180% level of support. Do you think you used Giant's Normal 180% support for a good period of time? If yes, then that might explain why you used more battery life on the Civante which gives 190% of support on the Standard. Since Giant's 53 miles of range was 80% when set to Eco. You would have to divide Yamaha's mileage range in the Eco+ AND Eco settings by two (Eco+ plus Eco divided by 2) so that you can see what kind of mileage you would get with a 75% level of support on the Yamaha. The 75% is closer to Giant's 80% range.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
No great wisdom here, but we’re a friendly bunch and it’s a quiet Sunday. A little Giant/Yamaha shootout for the fans:


For a little informal comparison, I rode the same 31 mile, 1200 foot elevation route 2 days in a row. Both days very humid, high around 90 degrees, winds no more than 5 mph. Went at my usual comfortable pace, riding almost always in Eco (the base mode in my 3 assist level Giant Toughroad, the second mode in the four level Yamaha Civante, which has a very low assist eco+ as the first level). Next level Normal (Giant), Standard (Yamaha) for the two significant climbs, never into the top assist.

Interesting! The gravel Giant, with 50mm gravel tires, ended up using less battery, and I had a very slightly higher average speed and five minutes quicker elapsed time than the road bike Civante. Again, I was just riding my bike, and I expected them to be close, but it was funny that the bigger and heavier bike was more efficient.

Both of these run Yamaha motors, both have 500Wh batteries. The Giant has 4300 miles on it, the Civante is only two weeks old.


And the ride? By the numbers? (Check Dustin Klein’s great YouTube channel)

Giant showed 58% battery remaining, ride time was 2:03 minutes at 15.1 mph. Yamaha had 49% remaining, 2:08 minutes at 14.5 mph.

Also interesting, the Giant shows 53 miles of range left at Eco, while the Yamaha shows 23 at it’s version of Eco. Now I know damn well the Giant is lying, since I have learned the range falls out of bed below 20% charge... haven’t figured out Yamaha’s shtick yet on this.

I know the assist levels on the Yamaha are 50% Eco+, 100% Eco, 190% Standard, and 280% High. I can no longer find the numbers for the Giant, though I believe the equivalent High percentage is more like 350 or 360%.

I very much like riding both bikes, depending on my mood or trip plan on any given day. I’m so impressed by that damn ToughRoad though, who’d a thunk it? This particular ride is equal parts paved bike path and paved roads. Even with those big whining tires, it held it’s ground to this upstart road bike. Get off into the bushes and it’s game over in ten feet. Nice job, Giant!

We can also state that for “real” road riding, that class 3 Civante will outrun the other bike in a heartbeat just by going to Standard and chewing up the miles. That’s for another day.

Interesting comparison however there are several problems in your experiment.

First of all you should have measured your power input that may easily be the reason for the difference. That variation is possible in between two rides.

Second do you have your speed profile? Same average speed may lead to different power consumption.

Third, the battery gauge is just an estimator not exact and it may be possible that what you are seeing is the difference between the battery gauge calibration between each bikes.


Side note, I do similar climbs on my gravel with pw-se and I usually get a very good range.
 

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
It is interesting that the Giant used less battery for the same task. I noticed the Giant bikes level of support are off by one.
For example, if on the Civante Eco+ has a support level of 50%, on the Giant it has 80%. On Standard (3rd level) for the Civante, it has a level of support of 190%. I think Standard is the equivalent to Giants Normal (2nd) level, it has a 180% level of support.
Do you think you used Giant's Normal 180% support for a good period of time? If yes, then that might explain why you used more battery life on the Civante which gives 190% of support on the Standard. Since Giant's 53 miles of range was 80% when set to Eco. You would have to divide Yamaha's mileage range in the Eco+ AND Eco settings by two (Eco+ plus Eco divided by 2) so that you can see what kind of mileage you would get with a 75% level of support on the Yamaha. The 75% is closer to Giant's 80% range.
Oski, welcome to EBR and go Stanford. 🌲 ;)
Regarding the reported range differences, each of the bike manufacturers can re-program the OEM software with their customized support levels.
For example, my BH bike with the Yamaha PW-X has the following levels... Eco+ 50%, Eco 100%, Standard 190%, High 280%, Extra Power 320%
 
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Saratoga Dave

Well-Known Member
Yeah, this was hardly scientific. I just did my regular ride and wrote down the result. For Oski, almost all on the Giant would have been on Eco, similar on the Civante. The Civ has an additional lower level of Eco+, but I have evolved into using the regular Eco most of the time. Anything higher on either bike is for a specific hill, grade, headwind or black bear.

I am at a loss to explain the results, but I am well aware of the Giant’s tendency for the range mileage to fall off a cliff after 20% or so. If you trust the range after that, you will be walking or at least riding without assist long before you get back home.

I have yet to run the Civante down much below that 20% level. As for the numbers in the original post, I don’t believe the Civante was that low for one minute, it doesn’t make sense.

I should also add that I really, really like that Civante, and the Giant just continues to roll along and do everything asked of it every time. I hope to ride the GAP later this year on it if the damn virus allows. Spring ain’t gonna happen, but maybe late summer or beyond. It’s a bit of a bucket list item, and the clock is ticking louder every year.
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Yeah, this was hardly scientific. I just did my regular ride and wrote down the result. For Oski, almost all on the Giant would have been on Eco, similar on the Civante. The Civ has an additional lower level of Eco+, but I have evolved into using the regular Eco most of the time. Anything higher on either bike is for a specific hill, grade, headwind or black bear.

I am at a loss to explain the results, but I am well aware of the Giant’s tendency for the range mileage to fall off a cliff after 20% or so. If you trust the range after that, you will be walking or at least riding without assist long before you get back home.

I have yet to run the Civante down much below that 20% level. As for the numbers in the original post, I don’t believe the Civante was that low for one minute, it doesn’t make sense.

I should also add that I really, really like that Civante, and the Giant just continues to roll along and do everything asked of it every time. I hope to ride the GAP later this year on it if the damn virus allows. Spring ain’t gonna happen, but maybe late summer or beyond. It’s a bit of a bucket list item, and the clock is ticking louder every year.
On the Civante, when I rode it down to 15% battery, it said I had 7 miles to get home on Eco. 35% of the time, I use the Civ on Standard (my friends like to ride at a steady 21mph on a 3 hour ride). 10% of the ride it’s on Eco. But 30% of the ride, I ride on turbo for steep climbs and fast paced stretches going 26mph). I started the ride with 90% charge and got home with 15% and got a range of 45miles using 75% of my battery. With a fully charged battery, I know I can get min 50-mile range using Standard and High. I am IMPRESSED with the battery range on the Civante :) Other bikes say they can go 50 miles, but that’s on their lowest setting. The Civ can go 50 on its top two settings.
 
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