Advice needed: Eggrider vs. mid drive motor?

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
So my joke of a cargo bike with geared hub motor has about 7000 miles on it powered. Ha Ha! With one chain worn out so far. One $221 hub motor worn out. ~4000 lb cargo toted uphill 30 miles to my summer camp.
Commercially sold bikes have to be able to carry the load from the Pacific beach to the top of the Sierra without stopping. Most of the ebike market is CA, OR, WA. Geared hub motors will burn in that service, big warrenty problem. Thus the multiple mid-drive cargo bikes sold. Geared hub motors might be perfectly suited to Maine. OP hasn't burned his/her motor yet on his/her Radwagon. No 1000' rises in 30 minutes? Just OP is concerned about stability of the Radwagon, or maybe the stopping power of the brakes as is.
Agree with you totally about inadvisibility of carrying a 6 year old on back of a MTB or cruiser frame. It would be more stable with a seat mounted on the front, a la 2 wheel butcher's bicycle of Arizona (not the 3 wheel copenhagen bike with huge bin).
Those big box kid hauler's from NET & BEL yuba & R&M are pretty safe, but must be **** to ride into a headwind. Expensive too with the wheel in front of the box and the steering in the back.
You're always very vocal about your personal preference. But its not accepted by the mainstream. Anyone looking around the internet on what qualifies as a good cargo solution is not going to find hub motors unless they are low end bikes. There's very good reason for that whether you want to hear it or not.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
I’m one that doesn’t give a hoot for EggRiders. They are a constant work in progress. I find it easier to use a program cable. Changing settings on the fly is of no value to me. If users aren’t somewhat comfortable with flashing firmware and computer use they can be a nightmare.

if you feel like it you could return the EggRider or pass it along to an adept computer savvy BBSxx series user.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I’m one that doesn’t give a hoot for EggRiders. They are a constant work in progress. I find it easier to use a program cable. Changing settings on the fly is of no value to me. If users aren’t somewhat comfortable with flashing firmware and computer use they can be a nightmare.

if you feel like it you could return the EggRider or pass it along to an adept computer savvy BBSxx series user.
^^^ this x 100 I think. I've got one EggRider v2.0 myself on my Cyc-powered bike and its got one pro and a litany of cons. The pro is on a serious mtb I don't have much if any use for a display. I like to just ride and its super small profile fits in with that. So... its a display that isn't a useful display. Did I say that was a pro? I need to check battery level and thats about it. I did that with my Cyclone'd Stumpjumper with no display at all and a $14 inline watt meter.

"constant work in progress" That is 200% true. Don't forget you have to log into their web site and register your display so it will function.
 

indianajo

Well-Known Member
There's very good reason for that whether you want to hear it or not.
Yeah. Everybody important lives in California, Washington, or Oregon. Also shops make more money on mid-drives. Also they make money on the chains that have to be replaced every 1000 miles or so.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Yeah. Everybody important lives in California, Washington, or Oregon. Also shops make more money on mid-drives. Also they make money on the chains that have to be replaced every 1000 miles or so.
IIRC, the only thing less expensive than a chain is the electricity we need to charge the battery and maybe not even that.

Hub drives have their advantages, such as lower complexity and often lower cost. They also have their limitations, just like mid drives do.

Can we agree to leave the evangelism out of the discussion and focus on pros and cons of both, so folks can make informed decisions?
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
You're always very vocal about your personal preference. But its not accepted by the mainstream. Anyone looking around the internet on what qualifies as a good cargo solution is not going to find hub motors unless they are low end bikes. There's very good reason for that whether you want to hear it or not.
In defense of hub drives, RAD (and a lot of it's copycats) is generally considered pretty mainstream by a lot of people. I think it safe to say they've sold a TON of RAD Wagons over the years? IMHO, it's a pretty neat bike if you can use something like that. Not going to join the hub vs. mid argument regarding best, because I believe "best" is going to depend on way too many variables that are going to be dependant on a user/rider's own use case. Personally, I find it pretty easy to make good arguments for both ways to power a cargo bike. No different than any other bike really.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
@mainelobstah, Welcome! @m@Roertson is correct. You will want a frame designed to take a kid or cargo on the back and a twin kickstand with a powerful mid-drive. Kids grow. I am in the SF, CA area where we have hills. Last week I purchased a Yuba Boda Boda to convert for $650. These are lightweight and compact for cargo bikes. The rear rack holds 100Kg, 220lbs. I received this comment today from a person who lives on a 12% hill. "Thought I’d update you that the bike is running very well. We use it every day for running our 4 year old to and from preschool." He has a Sweet Curry that I made into a Spicy Curry. It holds up to 440lbs on the back. If you are handy you can put in a mid-drive, save a ton, and get a better bike than the ones online or at stores. The first two are Boda Bodas, the next is that orange Curry. The Boda Bodas are the most fun to ride because they are smaller aluminum bikes.
 

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linklemming

Well-Known Member
I’m one that doesn’t give a hoot for EggRiders. They are a constant work in progress. I find it easier to use a program cable. Changing settings on the fly is of no value to me. If users aren’t somewhat comfortable with flashing firmware and computer use they can be a nightmare.

if you feel like it you could return the EggRider or pass it along to an adept computer savvy BBSxx series user.
Despite all the apparent eggrider haters, its currently my display of choice for my 52V BBSHD builds:

Cons:
Software author just tries to cram too much stuff on the display and most of its in fonts too small to read even with reading glasses. I also need a magnifying glass to truly read everything. The smartphone app is very limited in what it show in the real-time display. Seems like it would be a good idea to be able to configure what things appear on the display. Younger engineers have no concept of eyesight issues that creep up when you get older.

Pros:
Changing settings on the fly - This is of value to me. I havnt had to use it much but it was nice to have when I did. I can tweek little things on the trail and see the result immediately. Up until just recently, there was no app to do this on a smart phone (yes, I am aware the best;) ebike bafang parts vendor located on the west coast just released a smartphone app using a cable).

52V battery compatible - Not many displays show the correct battery percentage or even the correct voltage. From memory, Luna has a modified 500C (wont work for me, clashes with my shimano deore brakes), eco-bike has one (same SW102 display as eggrider which I have) but I am not a fan of the display arrangement and the battery percentage seems off and there is no way to calibrate it as I recall. The eggrider does all of this.

Total WH usage - This is the absolutely most important feature for me, I got used to using it on my Cycle Analyst and just allows the to get the best range out of my battery. On the eggrider, unfortunately its in a trip summary screen with super small fonts so I have to stop, get out my reading glasses to read it. I do this at strategic points in my ride

There are other ways to get WH, a simple watt meter like use for my RC hobby works but would be limited to being placed at the battery/motor connection since all power goes thru this device and running power wires up to the handlebar would not be wise so one would have to stop and dismount the bike to read the display. This solution is also not weather resistant(the meter has vents in it for air circulation, luna has their own version which might be different). One could make their own power meter with a shunt resistor and an arduino but it would probably be easier to just program the arduino to work over serial with the motor controller (with bafang products). My winter project is to put my own software onto a SW102 display with my own custom screens. I have the parts, the bafang serial protocol and a good software baseline for the SW102 and the TSDZ2 which will be modified to incorporate the bafang serial protocol.
 
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tomjasz

Well-Known Member
An over rated display. How many users actually change change settings on the fly? Much ado about nothing.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
An over rated display. How many users actually change change settings on the fly? Much ado about nothing.
I thought I gave a pretty good rationale especially if one is running a 52V battery. Do I need to explain it again? Perhaps outline what part you didnt get and I can focus on a better explanation.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
I thought I gave a pretty good rationale especially if one is running a 52V battery. Do I need to explain it again? Perhaps outline what part you didnt get and I can focus on a better
You are not the typical kit builder. But certainly one of the most egocentric. I’ve gifted several EggRiders. And like myself more than one of them found it to be more hype than useful tool.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
You are not the typical kit builder. But certainly one of the most egocentric. I’ve gifted several EggRiders. And like myself more than one of them found it to be more hype than useful tool.
The eggrider isnt for everyone and for many is definately more than they need. I thought I outlined that pretty clearly. I see no reason you would need it, perhaps you should state your opinion that way. I think that would be more helpful.

It has many other features I havnt even outlined (small examples: offroad/road mode with default at poweron and even the ability to only enable it from a phone, battery ir calculation, security features). I use these features just the same I did on my CA3. Others might find them useful which is why I mentioned it. I also provide more detail than you do with your emotional twitter like responses.

Please outline what display one should use if they are running a 52V BBSHD. The only other options I am aware of are the 500C display from luna for $70 (of which they state the voltage is correct, no idea on the battery bars). There is also the SW102 from eco-bike at $75 (SW102 with special software only available from eco-bike). The additional $ for the eggrider seems trivial to me. The eco-bike version had potential but didnt suite me. I will eventually program my own sw for the sw102 and get exactly what I want.

There you go projecting again, no need to insult me just because I share a different viewpoint that is likely shared by others.
 
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m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
52V battery compatible - Not many displays show the correct battery percentage or even the correct voltage. From memory, Luna has a modified 500C (wont work for me, clashes with my shimano deore brakes), eco-bike has one (same SW102 display as eggrider which I have) but I am not a fan of the display arrangement and the battery percentage seems off and there is no way to calibrate it as I recall.
Just a quick comment on 52v compatible BBSHD displays - Thats the voltage I have standardized on myself. Luna's 500C is compatible as you noted, but also the Luna version of the DPC-18 has been compatible since they introduced it years ago. Also, the Luna version of the Bafang 860C display is 52v compatible. I actually just replaced my 500C display on my Envoy cargo bike as I am completing its outfitting for steep hills (moving it to a new home on the coast where basically nothing is flat). The 860C has become my favorite display - have it on 3 bikes now - because a) it has a clock and b) dig into the settings and you can set it to display a numeric 'current' value. Since it has a graphical watt meter to go along with the graphical speedo, that means you can simultaneously see real time wattage and amperage, which is handy when I am tinkering with settings.
... Also they make money on the chains that have to be replaced every 1000 miles or so.
My Surly's 180+ link chain was checked today and with 1521 miles on the odometer, no sign of wear. I typically get around 3000 miles.

Yeah. Everybody important lives in California, Washington, or Oregon.
And as for this odd comment and all the stuff about mid drives and the sierras or whatever, there are far more cargo bikers in a few EU countries than all of North America. And since cargo biking is the most prevalant in countries that are flat as a pancake (i.e. Western Europe) the presumption about ... what... a PNW marketing conspiracy? is completely off the mark.

What you will find is riders who carry children regularly and who know a zillion tricks of the trade that nobody here - myself included - has a clue about. A question posed in a group with literally thousands of members who do nothing but live this kind of life is going to get dozens if not hundreds of on-topic responses that are based on experience. This is a great forum but for this kind of specialized query there's a better place to go, thats filled with more than two opinionated, self-appointed experts.
 
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Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
Not that I tried many others... but it was obvious to me from their descriptions what the capabilities were and chose the 860c from the get go. Too big for some but I like that it has all the information I want and I can read it at a glance in any light condition right in the center of my view. Add the separate buttons that can be easily manipulated without looking it was an obvious choice for me.
My only use for the eggrider is its ability to graph data from a ride for troubleshooting and programming... but how often do you need that once set up? So the eggrider can be useful at times, but I sure as hell don't want to use it as my daily display.
 
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linklemming

Well-Known Member
Just a quick comment on 52v compatible BBSHD displays - Thats the voltage I have standardized on myself. Luna's 500C is compatible as you noted, but also the Luna version of the DPC-18 has been compatible since they introduced it years ago. Also, the Luna version of the Bafang 860C display is 52v compatible. I actually just replaced my 500C display on my Envoy cargo bike as I am completing its outfitting for steep hills (moving it to a new home on the coast where basically nothing is flat). The 860C has become my favorite display - have it on 3 bikes now - because a) it has a clock and b) dig into the settings and you can set it to display a numeric 'current' value. Since it has a graphical watt meter to go along with the graphical speedo, that means you can simultaneously see real time wattage and amperage, which is handy when I am tinkering with settings.
Thanks for the detailed information 👍 , its nice when we can share information, point out where others might be wrong in a nice way and point them in the right direction.

Do these other displays also show correct battery percentage (bars) for 52V? It was my impression that they did not. That being said, I dont find battery indicators all that accurate. I have found the most accurate thing for me to be either battery voltage or WH consumed. I have gotten pretty good at knowing range just from voltage but WH consumed just seems more direct and easy to understand. I really liked it on the CA3. The eggrider was the only other display that had this

The 860C is just too big for me and would not work with my cockpit setup. The 500C would be perfect except it wont work with any shimano MTB brakes that have a hinge to allow easy handlebar installation (both my bikes with BBSHD).

As I have mentioned before, the eggrider in not perfect and in many ways I hate it which is why I am working on my own software. That being said, it is the best option for me at the moment.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Do these other displays also show correct battery percentage (bars) for 52V? It was my impression that they did not. That being said, I dont find battery indicators all that accurate. I have found the most accurate thing for me to be either battery voltage or WH consumed. I have gotten pretty good at knowing range just from voltage but WH consumed just seems more direct and easy to understand. I really liked it on the CA3. The eggrider was the only other display that had this
I believe they do show correct percentages, but I use voltage and not percentage. I don't think in terms of percentages when I am looking at a battery level. I know I saw the comment about correct percentages in the Luna DPC-18 intro video many moons ago. Its probably still on the product page (assuming its the same vid)

Interestingly, the 860C also has a remaining-range calculation that updates in real time. Not something I have explored too deeply as I use big batteries and try and keep them in the top 1/2 of their range.

I have had the 500C on two bikes and found it washed out in intense sunlight. The DPC-18 does too (I have them on a couple of older builds) but the 860C is visible no matter what.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Not that I tried many others... but it was obvious to me from their descriptions what the capabilities were and chose the 860c from the get go. Too big for some but I like that it has all the information I want and I can read it at a glance in any light condition right in the center of my view. Add the separate buttons that can be easily manipulated without looking it was an obvious choice for me.
My only use for the eggrider is its ability to graph data from a ride for troubleshooting and programming... but how often do you need that once set up? So the eggrider can be useful at times, but I sure as hell don't want to use it as my daily display.
EggRiders are more attractive to those nutters needing to squeeze 30+MPH out of their BBSHD. I've never parsed the drive to change settings on the fly. I find a simple programming cable to tweak, and nothing more is needed. But then WTF do I know.