Any good MTB program numbers for BBSHD?

TNC

Member
Region
USA
Being relatively new to ebikes and the mid-drive BBSHD I have, I'm seeing a pattern with the advice given here on this forum and elsewhere. And mind you, this isn't a complaint...apparently just the nature of the format. It appears that many, maybe most, of the ebike forums are more pavement, commuter, dirt road, etc. focused than more aggressive mountain biking, and I kind of get where that's coming from.

After riding our demo Trek Rail at the shop I work at part time as a mechanic, the bug bit me hard to convert one of my better, older MTB's...an '08 SC Nomad...to a mid-drive. After only a couple of outings, I am hooked. I'm sure I will be able to reprogram some improvements into the software, but it was quite rideable the first time out. It's a little abrupt in its initial power delivery when hitting the pedals again, but I'm also used to riding dirt motorcycles, so that's not a totally alien issue.

While I'm sure I will be able to tailor my motor's program more ideally with time, I was hoping to find more experienced, trail oriented suggestions on these different forums to not have to start from scratch. I've done a lot of reading but have not found a lot of data. That Karl Gesslein fellow is pretty informative, but most of the info I found from him on a true MTB application involved the BBS02 version. I'm posting this here as it's designated as an MTB use category.

So...anyone know of good, specific, mountain biking program numbers on the HD from any source? I'm not looking for the so called "hot rod" programming that seems to involve sheer speed and such. I want to retain power, but I'm looking for slightly smoother, predictable power delivery.
 

PDoz

Well-Known Member
You could try asking here https://www.emtbforums.com/community/forums/diy-ebike-builds.61/ but perhaps have a look around the site for a while and see if the culture suits you.

All my mates who dabbled in self builds eventually moved to factory bikes - and these are guys who have spent decades modifying dirtbikes. From 2019 onwards they just couldn't match the advances in the emtb industry. Reading between the lines of Robs cheeb thread I suspect he has found tha same.

Having said that, it'd be great to hear how far you get as a mechanic.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
The Luna Hot Rod tune is probably perfect for you. Or... it will be a far better starting point than anything I will post that I have set up for myself. That tune is the one I usually wipe away from a motor once it arrives :)

And don't be put off by the Hot rod part. That comes from the amp setting of 30, which gives the motor a peak of about 1750w on a 52v battery (58.8v x 30a = 1764w). But I know from talking to the people who use it most that its more aggressive pedal assist is exactly what singletrack riders want. My stuff will pull power if your rpm's go sky high. The last thing you want is to be spinning your legs up a dirt switchback and the motor decides you don't need power anymore.

That tune's specifics should be easy to find. PM me if you can't dig it up and I can get the details to you.
 

TNC

Member
Region
USA
Thank you very much folks. I've done a lot more research since that last post, and yesterday I got to perform two programming and riding sessions applying some of that data. I live on a small acreage, but it doesn't have much in the way of actual, off road challenge, though it has enough to get a good feel for these program changes. Another trip out to the trail is required for full verification. This tuning has been easier than I thought, and the wise input from some of the well known sources has been fairly understandable as far as the descriptions of each tuning element is concerned.

PDoz, that's interesting on your comment about the mountain bikers relative dissatisfaction with the Bafang setup. Working at a shop that sells Trek, Specialized and Santa Cruz, I do agree that the emtb pinnacle at the moment is probably within those three brands...though I'd like to try a Bafang Ultra motor if it came in as good a package as those three. The torque sensing system is superior, but I gotta tell ya that I was kind of shocked how controllable my BBSHD was even as delivered with its fairly raw settings. I've already smoothed some of that out to an amazing degree with the help of the internet info. Again, somewhat explosive power delivery isn't out of my experience being a dirt moto guy, but probably the biggest negative without a torque sensor is not so much how much power delivery but how/when it is delivered. On my first trail outing, I had to really pay attention as to when that power kicked in as it pertained to pedal strokes. I had to really stay on top of my installed hydro brake switches to kill the power in a timely manner. You kind of do this on a dirt moto anyway...aggressive throttle, then aggressive braking...but it's a little irritating on an MTB. I can tell the newly tweaked program pretty much removes all of that...but...I reserve final judgement with some actual trail use. We've had about 4" of rain recently, so the local trail will need a few days to dry out...DRAT!...LOL! One other negative with the Bafang is that ground clearance is slightly diminished. Where I ride is rocky, and I didn't find it to be a major problem. It's just something you need to be aware of. Interestingly our shop's Trek Rail 7 demo has the same ground clearance as my Nomad with the BBSHD. However, it doesn't extend down much less than the 42T Luna Eclipse chainring. A lot of this depends on what kind of downtube/BB interface angle and design your bike has.

PDoz, back to the factory emtb's, even for someone working at bike shop, I'm not willing to throw down that kind of money for an MTB. I've had/have some excellent MTB's with top drawer components over the years that didn't come close to the price of the level of the emtb that I would be happy with. Being a dirt moto guy, I'm a stickler for suspension quality and do my own servicing and revalving when necessary...same goes for MTB. The '08 Nomad is still a viable platform despite the 26" rear and 27.5" front...or huge 26" front. I run a Fox 36 coil fork and a Rock Shox DH Vivid coil rear shock. To get that level of suspension on one of the factory emtb's requires a steep price. Our Trek Rail 7 demo bike is good, but it's not what I want in suspension...and it's still a fairly pricey bike. Markup isn't that great, so the bargain, even for an employee, isn't earth shattering. Plus, I'll turn 70 this year. Now, I may not be the average 70 year old...whatever that is...as I'm still a decently aggressive MTB and dirt moto rider. But I don't need that kind of multi-$1000 investment...especially with how this BBSHD seems to be working out. Only time will tell.

m@Robertson, thanks for that clarification on the "hot rod" reference. It's funny, I had kind of dismissed Karl Gesslein's data at first because it's 2015 data and mainly applies to the BBS02. However, I see now that most of the 02 info applies to the HD with some exceptions. His category explanations on the different tuning elements are excellent, so even if not a carbon copy to the HD or my personal preference, they are quite valuable in assessing what I want to try out...good stuff. Like I said, I've already been able to use a lot of this info to retain power but smooth out the delivery in this HD unit.

Sorry for the long winded post, and I know this is old hat for most of you, but y'all have been very helpful which has made this experiment a real joy. Thanks. Hopefully this will help other newcomers to this platform, and I will report back with more finite details as I hammer them out. I'll also add that even though I have gained a lot of useful into across the internet on this subject, I've found more useful info here so far, even if a good bit of it was not MTB focused. There's a good knowledge base here.
IMG_20210421_140049123_HDR.jpg
 

PDoz

Well-Known Member
You describe really well why the locals changed to big brand Emtb - that natural riding experience where you don;t have to think about power delivery.

We're talking grizzly old ex enduro riders who cut a network of single tracks into the local hills many decades ago. many of them are from your generation but still leave the average rider for dead in the dirt ....Over the years it's become less fun to ride those trails on motorbikes - active policing by both the dept of multiple name changes and the police being a major factor. Pre 2018 , a group of these guys had been dabbling in bafang powered mtb conversions , and then the trek rail 7 / merida e160 came out. There's only 1 bafang rider left now.

All these guys rode KTM / sherco dirt bikes so the purchase and running costs of a high end emtb back in 2018 was easy to swallow (it was 30% of a motorbike back then) . Covid creep has changed the economics, but since the group single line rides are mostly done on emtb it's easier to justify keeping an older ktm for the open country rides whilst upgrading the emtb.
 

TNC

Member
Region
USA
LOL!, PDoz...funny you mention enduro riders. That's what I did for decades for competition in my state's enduro circuit. The place our dirt riding club has been on since 1979 puts on one of the annual events in the circuit, and we've even had a couple of national events out there in recent years. That riding place has over 100 miles of singletrack, and I'll be trying this electrified Nomad out there...one of the toughest locations on our enduro circuit...even the national level riders were impressed...LOL! My dirt moto riding now is done out there or frequently going out west to Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and other points in the western U.S. for 2-3 week trips of camping and riding the boondocks.

PDoz, I didn't get your comments about the police, unless it was something about maybe illegal trails or such. In Texas we don't have a lot of public land to ride off road compared to out west, so clubs form to access property. We do have an excellent local MTB trail that I and others have built over the years, and emtb's are welcome there. We don't seem to have as many people in my area who get their feathers ruffled by every little thing, much less over emtb's...LOL!
 

PDoz

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I'm in Australia. The dept multiple name changes are the parks people . Otherwise known as sparks and wildfire...although I think they're called delwp at the moment. https://www.delwp.vic.gov.au/

Much of our single line network was originally ( legally) cut for the Aus 4 day enduro back in the 70's / 80's , with another section cut for the isde around 2000. But the same guys who cut that never really stopped, so it's a huge network but much of it illegal. Walking / cycling is tollerated, motorbike riding isn't officially allowed - yet it's the motorbike riders who build and maintain them.

We're also lucky enough to have huge tracks of official mtb riding public land - and thanks to the example set by Tasmanian trail parks our govt gas decided mtb tourism is a good investment. $ millions are going into building trails to try and help struggling regional towns survive. Over here, an emtb is legally a mtb - so we have legal access to amazing purpose build trails . Ski resorts rely on mtb and bushwalking tourism for most of the year, as do many ex logging towns.