Anybody else go from a rear hub motor to mid drive?

linklemming

Well-Known Member
never hop on a bike with a torque sensor without grabbing the brake first or make sure you dont touch the pedals when hopping on, any pedal pressure can and will cause the bike to go!
Depends on the system. This definately holds true on the cheaper/less sophisticated torque sensors.

It doesnt not hold true for any of the more upscale mid drives I have used (Yamaha, Brose(I own 2), Shimano, Bosch). None of these have brake cutouts.

My cheaper Juiced CCX torque sensor definately can take off.

That being said, its a good idea (on any bike, even non electric) to apply brakes when getting on a bike. I have been doing it for years
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
torque sensors are sensitive and jumpy, the torque sensor on my hub motor cruiser is even more touchy,it jumps forward just from the weight of my leg on the pedal,resting my foot on the pedal at a stoplight will often cause the bike to jump forward if i dont keep my hands on the brake lol, my Ultra is a little less sensitive. with a Cadence bike this is not a concern!

This should really be stated as 'torque sensors CAN be sensitive and jumpy, especially the cheaper ones'. You get what you pay for
 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
Depends on the system. This definately holds true on the cheaper/less sophisticated torque sensors.

It doesnt not hold true for any of the more upscale mid drives I have used (Yamaha, Brose(I own 2), Shimano, Bosch). None of these have brake cutouts.

My cheaper Juiced CCX torque sensor definately can take off.

That being said, its a good idea (on any bike, even non electric) to apply brakes when getting on a bike. I have been doing it for years
Hicks's bike has Bafang Ultra, its not up scale, its a rude and crude Monster with 160nm of torque,they are less jumpy than the Hub Motors i have tried with torque sensing. i have never ridden any Euro Bikes so i dont know how they compare.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
He's fishing ElevenAD. Trying to suck you into an "us vs. them" pissing match with little to add on topic.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
He's fishing ElevenAD. Trying to suck you into an "us vs. them" pissing match with little to add on topic.
Sorry, not my intent at all. Im just trying to clarify things. I have seen statements about touchy torque sensors applied 'generally' to ALL torque sensors which is completely false.

Its more of a 'cheap torque sensor implementation is touchy' just the same as 'cheap PAS implementation is jerky'.

I have both nice torque sensing bikes (brose) and cheaper ones (Juiced) and am also in the process of speccing the parts for a torque sensing GMAC bike but am also considering a Bafang Ultra bike.

Your attempt to 'classify me' is kindof funny
 
Last edited:

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Sorry, not my intent at all. Im just trying to clarify things. I have seen statements about touchy torque sensors applied 'generally' to ALL torque sensors which is completely false.

Its more of a 'cheap torque sensor implementation is touchy' just the same as 'cheap PAS implementation is jerky'.

I have both nice torque sensing bikes (brose) and cheaper ones (Juiced) and am also in the process of speccing the parts for a torque sensing GMAC bike but am also considering a Bafang Ultra bike.

Your attempt to 'classify me' is kindof funny
Well, if you're concerned about "cheap" maybe I can save you the trouble regarding the Ultra. That's the motor I'm talking about. Just note that this "cheap" motor is easily programmed to handle issues like the ones I wrote about. I doubt that's the case with the "premium" motors. The fact the controller is so easily customized to the riders preferences is what sold it.

I have the MAC 12t now that I absolutely love! I was going to go GMAC, as the area I ride frequently (coastal rolling hills) would work well with that system. Really well!

Apologies if I misunderstood your intent... -Al
 

opimax

Well-Known Member
Both GMAC and the Ultra (with Archon controller) been brought up. I am at some point going to have to choose between similar bikes with this being the major difference (very major! ). Anybody have opinions? I seem to prefer hub drives so far, biggest issue any delay in shifting so far hasn’t work for me...

Yes I want to hold 30+ mph pedaling on flats and lightly rolling hills on rails to trails and streets
 
Last edited:

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Both GMAC and the Ultra (with Archon controller) been brought up. I am at some point going to have to choose between similar bikes with this being the major difference (very major! ). Anybody have opinions? I seem to prefer hub drives so far, biggest issue any delay in shifting so far hasn’t work for me...

Yes I want to hold 30+ mph pedaling on flats and lightly rolling hills on rails to trails and streets
My opinion, "holding" 30 mph is more in line with high voltage (60-70v) applied to big direct drive hubs. The biggest issue is about cooling required at that kind of speed. Neither the hub drives or the mid drives are real good at it. Direct drive far better in that respect. Both geared hub and mid are able to crack 30 easily. Holding it for the length of a commute for instance, is quite another issue. That's assuming you have enough Ah capacity in your battery to make a 30mph commute even worth considering.

One finer point regarding the GMAC. From a performance perspective, the GMAC is basically an improved MAC with regen. There's no difference that I'm aware of between the 2 motors as far as performance. -Al
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Well, if you're concerned about "cheap" maybe I can save you the trouble regarding the Ultra. That's the motor I'm talking about. Just note that this "cheap" motor is easily programmed to handle issues like the ones I wrote about. I doubt that's the case with the "premium" motors. The fact the controller is so easily customized to the riders preferences is what sold it.

I have the MAC 12t now that I absolutely love! I was going to go GMAC, as the area I ride frequently (coastal rolling hills) would work well with that system. Really well!

Apologies if I misunderstood your intent... -Al
My use of the work 'cheap' was not directed at the Ultra athough it could be interpreted as such. I have considered the Ultra for awhile but havnt found a bike with it I would want (the bitrix ultra eagle is REAL close). I would have bought a Wattwagons Commuter when it first came out if it didnt have the $$$$Rohloff Hub, just a simple chain setup for me. The archon controller look interesting but another $700.

Yeah, Im pretty sure a 52V 10t GMAC/Phaserunner/TorqueSensor/CA3 on a Surly ECR with 27.5x2.6 tires will be perfect for the rides I want to use it on (rolling hills usually 4-6%, mostly light offroad/gravel). My Juiced CCX is perfect but I just want more offroad traction and comfort and I can only put a 2.1 tire in the rear which seems small when your really moving. My Brose bikes(one 20mph, one 28mph) are lovely on these rides as well but require more user input which is perfect when I want that.
 

opimax

Well-Known Member
Al, I can hold 28 + on a Stromer which is a DD hub , looking for 2-4mph more. I would prefer the quiet and smoothness of DD. My current “perfect” choice would be an unrestricted Stromer ST5 made by someone besides Stromer. So far to get close to this I am dealing with WattWagons and some customization involving these 2 choices. Pushkar is great to deal with and his reputation is awesome. I should end up,with something I love just posting While dealing with the wait. a recent fall has put me off the bikes for a couple months at least so that and travel restrictions with Covid no real hurry. When the time time comes I should be able to test bikes from him and make a decision

i thought there were some other differences in GMAC vs Mac but as long as it is a little more umph than Stromer I will be happy. I believe the Bafang with the archon controller will certainly be able to handle 32 and then some. just not as happy with my Trek and a speed Bosch motor for power Going up hills on the road and the delay you are supposed to do when shifting gears. I bought the Trek to have a reliable ride til the new bikes are here, it will be a spare.

Link, when I went for a spare bike til my bikes are here I had 2 thoughts , the Hil eater and and a local Brose powered Bike. Hilleater wasn’t available and I wanted a local purchase for service. The only class 3 local available was Trek no Specialized in stock . Trek has been reliable , shop has been great,

thx
 
Last edited:

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
HOLY COW....
Transitioning from a really powerful hub drive w/very nicely done cadence sensing, to an even more powerful mid drive with both torque and cadence sensing combined (and questionable programming!), I find I'm learning how to ride the new e-bike a whole different ball game. Though I'd like to start making changes regarding differences in the controller programming, I'm going to try to avoid knee jerk (over) reactions by riding the bike for a bit as it was delivered - while trying to maintain an open mind - as much as possible anyway.

Regarding that shift sensor delay, I managed to nearly completely stall the bike on a second ride while shifting from 3rd to 2nd a little late. The bike fell flat on it's face with a pause in power way way beyond 0.003 of a second. By time the power came back on the bike had nearly stopped. This vs. pauses that you don't even notice or notice just slightly. The difference? I'm going to say it's cadence speed. At very low cadence, my bet right now is you can plan on a pregnant pauses with a low cadence/late shift scenario. Tune-able issue? Dunno.

The other thing I've run into is false starts (bike lurches ahead) while climbing aboard in PAS 1. I have absolutely no idea how or what I'm doing to cause this. I've been caught completely by surprise each time it's happened. I do know for sure I am NOT touching the throttle. It's happened 3 times now, in the first 10 miles. My cadence based hub drive bike, which is set to turn the power on almost immediately as the crank is turned, has had maybe 3 false starts since I started riding it 3 years ago. I can deal with that kind of frequency. So that's an issue that's got my attention. Fat tires, heavy bike, gob's of power, likely not quite having your balance = unpleasant experience. I KNOW there's a setup function that will fix this issue. That's a mod that will likely happen soon - but I'd like to know for sure that the crank movement is the source of my evil first.

Not trying to sound like I'm complaining. This is a really nice bike - I just need to get used to it! -Al
So, regarding the false starts. Short story, it had nothing to do with the torque sensing. Nothing. When I assembled the bike out of the box, I replaced the handlebars and moved the throttle to the right side - where it should have been to start with. This process had me rearranging everything, and one of those was the up/down button's proximity to the LH handgrip. I thought it would be "handy" to have it convenient, adjacent to the grip. It was actually overlapping, but just a hair - but that was all it took for me to push down on the minus/down key without realizing it while climbing aboard - activating the "walk" mode....

Fix was incredibly simple, required I move the up/down switch far enough to install the brake handle between the grip and the switch. Still easy to access easily - but far enough to eliminate the possiblity of accidental activation. I realized what was going on when riding and the bike switched from PAS 1 to PAS 0. I looked down, and saw my fat paw touching the switch - and suddenly it all fit. I knew exactly where I had screwed up - not the bike! Another one of those lessons learned the hard way.... -Al
 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
So, regarding the false starts. Short story, it had nothing to do with the torque sensing. Nothing. When I assembled the bike out of the box, I replaced the handlebars and moved the throttle to the right side - where it should have been to start with. This process had me rearranging everything, and one of those was the up/down button's proximity to the LH handgrip. I thought it would be "handy" to have it convenient, adjacent to the grip. It was actually overlapping, but just a hair - but that was all it took for me to push down on the minus/down key without realizing it while climbing aboard - activating the "walk" mode....

Fix was incredibly simple, required I move the up/down switch far enough to install the brake handle between the grip and the switch. Still easy to access easily - but far enough to eliminate the possiblity of accidental activation. I realized what was going on when riding and the bike switched from PAS 1 to PAS 0. I looked down, and saw my fat paw touching the switch - and suddenly it all fit. I knew exactly where I had screwed up - not the bike! Another one of those lessons learned the hard way.... -Al
oh man your lucky you didnt get hurt, walk mode is pretty intense, i activated it by mistake trying to figure out how to get into setting, bike jumped right out of my hands lol, glad you got the issue resolved!
 

kmccune

Active Member
I have an Addmotor P7 550 rear hub (750W) and a m2s Ultra Fat mid drive. I got the rear hub bike first and the mid drive about seven months later in Sept. of 2018. Both bikes have the gear shift motor cut-off switch and throttles. I like the rear hub bike much better than the mid drive. The rear hub bike is much peppier and just feels like it is more fun to drive. In the two years I have had the bikes I still find the mid drive the lesser bike. Both bikes have 4 inch fat tires. Also, the torque sensor went out on the mid drive last month and as of this writing is not available as a replacement part, so that particular motor is useless.
Are the torque numbers including the reduction in the powertrain? At higher speeds your torque is going to bottom out, go by the watts( it actually tells you how much power you actually have or are using( a starter motor has massive torque, very little HP( its got to come from somewhere)
 

BigNerd

Well-Known Member
I’m considering going the other way....from mid drive to rear hub drive
I thought mid-drive was going to be my next ebike... but I actually prefer the rear hub drive. Although I'm not a throttle monger like @Taylor57, I like having the option and the lower maintenance on the drive train (supposedly) has me worry less.
 

E-Wheels

Well-Known Member
Details please!
For my ebike use case it’s all about total cost of ownership going forward
I commute 80km/day on my current E8000 mid drive which has done 40,000+km, and to date has been trouble free🤞
This distance is very high for a mid drive, and I’m concerned its probably getting close to eventually failing or will start to have reliability issues

With this in mind I recently did a service on the drive unit as it is out of warranty
The inside was as clean as the day it was assembled with no signs of water ingress or rust
The bearings still felt smooth and showed no signs of wear, so all I did was apply new grease to the gearing and closed it up again

My worry is if it eventually does fail, repairing it is not an option as Shimano will not sell spare parts direct, and only want to sell you a new drive unit (currently nil stock in Australia) which retails anywhere from AUD1,600 - AUD1,800. :eek: :eek:
When I bought the ebike new in 2018 for AUD3,500, I was told at that time a new drive unit was approx AUD800

Based on the info I have found online (including from the good folks here at EBR) hub motors are a simple design, cheap to buy and maintain, and have a good reputation for high speed trouble free operation on relatively flat terrain which makes up 90% of my commute route

As I have a couple of non power assisted bikes in my collection, I’ve decided to take out some insurance and use one as a host bike for a hub drive kit, of which I can readily get spares for and maintain myself

I don’t know which hub kit I will get as yet, and I’m still researching
Open to any suggestions:)

The Shengyi SX and the GMAC kits both from Grin look promising and have made it to my short list
My only concern with either motor is that Grin don’t sell spare gear sets and I can’t find anyone else who does
 
Last edited:

MartsEbike

Well-Known Member
Region
Other
I have a hub drive bike that gave me nearly 5 years of completely trouble free riding... not even a puncture... all I did was change the brake pads and add some air/lube once in a while.

Can't expect the same from my Mid-Drive....
 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
I have an Addmotor P7 550 rear hub (750W) and a m2s Ultra Fat mid drive. I got the rear hub bike first and the mid drive about seven months later in Sept. of 2018. Both bikes have the gear shift motor cut-off switch and throttles. I like the rear hub bike much better than the mid drive. The rear hub bike is much peppier and just feels like it is more fun to drive. In the two years I have had the bikes I still find the mid drive the lesser bike. Both bikes have 4 inch fat tires. Also, the torque sensor went out on the mid drive last month and as of this writing is not available as a replacement part, so that particular motor is useless.
no offense but if a Addmotor P7 competes with a M2s Ultra in anyway there is no question something wrong with the M2s, those 2 bikes are not in the same league. also you can easily buy a new Ultra torque sensor for like 100 bucks, not sure why you say the motor is useless? check Greenbikekit