Average Cruising Speed on your e-bike

K PierreR

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Boy from reading a lot of these comments I can see why e bike manufacturers lie about the capabilities of their bikes. If they told the truth, no one would buy their e bike. There is clear misunderstanding of what capable and sustainable mean in the world of machines. Most people cannot be convinced that the lies are not real. The answer is offering short warranties, overpriced extension warranties and every other sentence in the owners manual tells you the damned this is apt to kill you..
E bikes are new and there is not enough common knowledge to about their true capabilities. People believe they have gobs of power for speeds above 20 mph when in truth, e bikes suck on the power side big time. The real truth is they seem powerful because most people don't understand how pathetic human power really is.
Not many people would go out and buy a 300 hp automobile and expect to drive it to near its maximum output for a half hour commute twice a day yet that is the expected norm on a cheap off the shelf e bike. How long do you think the automobile would last? Why expect the e bike to be any different.
My bike has a 1000 watt BBSHD and is run by a huge 2.5KWhr 52 volt battery. The bike is really capable of 18-20 mph with averages around 16-17 mph overall with a range of about 90 miles I can absolutely count on 10mph and 45 miles of range. That is the ultimate capability on any route in any weather.
My bike can easily go 28 mph, but you throw in a 10 mph headwind or a 3-4% grade and you can kiss 28mph good bye. Now I know that a lighter bike and rider would be more capable but that is my current reality.
With my truck. I can go 65 mph with just about any headwind or hill. 65 is probably half the maximum speed. I can sustain half the 28 mph (14 mph) on just about any hill and just about any wind speed I care to ride in.
Bottom line is that I am not uncomfortable with many loose definitions of sustainable and capable but operation of an e bike anywhere near it's maximum rated output does not fly in any my definitions. The reason it bugs me is that I keep getting baited into the glimmering hope that someone on here has stumbled across the holy grail of e bikes only to read between the lines and realize it is not true. I am afraid of pegging the BS meter to the point I won't recognize a true advancement in the world of e bikes.
Sorry for the rant, now I have recharged and can go on taking the bait.
 

Rickman1

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Aridzona
Riding a beach cruiser style bike. Upright position, 750w, 48v. I peddle around leisurely in PAS 1 and maintain 14 to 15 mph. I have had it up to 32mph with me pedaling my ass off but that was just to see how fast I could go. That would be difficult to maintain for any length of time. I’m not in a race or trying to ‘shred anything, I like to “cruise” around.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Doable unless there's significant headwind. Also, two full recharges of the battery a day would cost the OP a lot of money for a new battery quite soon.
Thats not true at all.

The described 20 mile commute and 2x daily recharge is very nearly my routine as well (15.5 mi each way). My 17.5ah commuter battery was given 2x daily recharges as described for three years. It was then semi-retired and recently went back into service when I brought my Mongoose cargo bike into service. Informally, that pack, which has Samsung 25R cells inside - is north of 2000 cycles, and it still appears to be at full capacity (I have packs that aren't so I know what to look for). Cruising speed on that bike was pretty high at around 28 mph (being 2wd didn't hurt).

Battery longevity is a function of the brains used to charge the battery. Its well known that an 80% charge cycle increases cycle count. Additionally, limiting depth of discharge is equally if not even more beneficial. Add to that: Charge at low current levels to eliminate imparting heat to the pack. How low? I can charge at 0.5 amp if I start in the morning at work and my pack will be just about at 55v (58.8v full charge on a 14S pack). When I get home I'll be at 50v or so and by morning I'll be at the same level ... having charged at 0.2a. Bigger pack? Adjust your charger to deliver current at a slightly higher level. Maybe as much as a whopping 1.0a.

If you wrote a check to a dealer then you will take what you are given and live within the limits you are handed. But for the builder who has a grasp of the subject matter, and whose equipment features are not manufacturer restricted, frequent charging is a non issue.


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m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
The reason it bugs me is that I keep getting baited into the glimmering hope that someone on here has stumbled across the holy grail of e bikes only to read between the lines and realize it is not true. I am afraid of pegging the BS meter to the point I won't recognize a true advancement in the world of e bikes.
Sorry for the rant, now I have recharged and can go on taking the bait.
OK here's some :D

The grail for performance is 2wd. The problem is it ups the level of difficulty in building the thing enormously - to do the job right. I have just finished moving three bikes to my home in Pacific Grove, CA, where hills are extremely steep. Basically nothing is flat until you get to the shoreline. My single-BBSHD (30a) cargo bike with a 21ah 52v battery will crawl up and down the hills reliably at a relatively slow speed. Granny gear in the back up around 30T and an unremarkable 42T front chainring. Sweet spot with good chain line is around 24T in back. That gives me maybe 10-12 mph up a hill and thats using pedal assist as I am not a fan of throttling myself around. With throttle speed goes up but range falls of a cliff. No shock there.

The week after I brought up the cargo bike, I brought up its predecessor. A bike I built in 2017 specifically for this hilly area, but it never seemed to make it home until now, having been used on mild doubletrack in the lower Sierras and commuting with some trails thrown in. I was stunned at how strong it is. Same 30a BBSHD in the back. 35a geared hub in front to help it along. A hill I climb at 12 mph on the unladen cargo bike is a 20 mph hill on this thing. 24 mph peak on throttle just for giggles. Thats fast enough to let me take a lane and not slow enough to piss anyone off (30 mph auto speed limit). Front wheel is kept to lower power levels as thats the sweet spot of traction vs. power drain. And yeah sure it eats more. On my dual hub bike, I have a 31ah 14S pack fit into the triangle (you will need a badass BMS to handle the draw from twin controllers). On my 2wd cargo bike its 32ah. And on this bike, I decided today it works so freaking well I am bumping up its pack from 25ah to 32ah via 21700 cells that are much more dense than the 25R pack I am using now.

I'm taking it to Sea Otter at Laguna Seca either Saturday or Sunday. 11.1 miles with big elevation gain on the return trip. 25ah will make it but I will be happier with 32ah next year and totally not giving a damn about range anxiety. And thats a permanently mounted charger on the front rack :D
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EDIT: I forgot I made this vid on a commute. Footage taken from my dashcam. This was the dual-hub bike. All pedal assist. Essentially makes the wind go away. And yes I was being a bit of a smartass as to the choice of music. I encountered a club ride and those dozens of poor bastards had to pedal analog thru that wind. I did not speed up the footage I was cruising at around 28. Bike is geared high so I can do that and get a workout.
 
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K PierreR

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
OK here's some :D

The grail for performance is 2wd. The problem is it ups the level of difficulty in building the thing enormously - to do the job right. I have just finished moving three bikes to my home in Pacific Grove, CA, where hills are extremely steep. Basically nothing is flat until you get to the shoreline. My single-BBSHD (30a) cargo bike with a 21ah 52v battery will crawl up and down the hills reliably at a relatively slow speed. Granny gear in the back up around 30T and an unremarkable 42T front chainring. Sweet spot with good chain line is around 24T in back. That gives me maybe 10-12 mph up a hill and thats using pedal assist as I am not a fan of throttling myself around. With throttle speed goes up but range falls of a cliff. No shock there.

pxl_20210929_013039030-e1633137296875.jpg
That is a very nice bike and quite capable for your chosen speed and distance. The problem with it being the holy grail is that fact that is is illegal to use it as the holy grail for your 15.5 mile commute. The double whammy is that you have to build it. You cannot buy it off the shelf. I am another one with a bike that you cannot buy off the shelf and it will operate continuously at 22-24 mph on 95% of my riding but it is still a damned bicycle. Bicycles are not really meant to go more than 25
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
That is a very nice bike and quite capable for your chosen speed and distance. The problem with it being the holy grail is that fact that is is illegal to use it as the holy grail for your 15.5 mile commute. The double whammy is that you have to build it. You cannot buy it off the shelf. I am another one with a bike that you cannot buy off the shelf and it will operate continuously at 22-24 mph on 95% of my riding but it is still a damned bicycle. Bicycles are not really meant to go more than 25
I don't agree with that last point. Just for starters here in CA the upper speed limit on assist is 28 mph. With proper attention to braking, lights etc. I have yet to see any issue after many thousands of street commute miles across multiple bikes and years. But you do have to take the speed seriously and use top end components, right down to the top quality headset with steel races, resilient frame, hand built wheels with top quality rims and spokes and so on. 32-34 mph sustained cruises on flat ground are attainable with the right gearing to allow an assist. The one accident I had was a mindless motorist who t-boned me while I was riding in a bike lane at 15 mph.

As to illegality, that is also arguable since I am doing the same thing ebike manufacturers are doing en masse. Outputwise, yes I can peak above the legal limit going up a hill... but so will most of the over-the-counter ebikes sold in the USA. And looks are deceiving. Actual output is scaled well back thanks to a fair bit of tuning - mostly to the back motor, but also to the front. I may or may not have mentioned that the front motor's sweet spot (traction vs. battery drain) is about 250w of peak output. As to rear motor, on flat ground it won't exceed 400-450w output. My Bullitt cargo bike is much further under the limit as I will typically cruise at about 450w total output between both motors. I'm running about 20-22 mph at that power level. that bike's front motor is wound so it will provide max torque at low wheel rpms and melt away as speed increases, which is when the rear motor starts to take over, so while I get results from both motors, past about 22 mph the front has hit its rpm limit and is contributing essentially a placeholder max of 40w (just enough to eliminate friction and let the rear motor be all it can be). So... the idea is the front motor gets you off the line, taking the bite off the drivetrain that a mid drive would otherwise deliver. So in addition to low power usage you have little to no additional drivetrain wear, which is what people hate about mid drives.

The third 2wd bike, whose dashcam made that video uses dual geared hubs and on pedal assist in a stiff headwind, yeah its over the limit at around 1kw between both motors... but again so are most other 48v storebought bikes in the USA with just one motor. That bike is geared so I work hard to be at that top speed so I am putting a fair bit of collaborative effort in to reach the speed you see. On-motor (PAS) it runs out of oomph right at about 28 and I can get it to 30-32; especially with a little tailwind or the right downslope.

None of the 2wd bikes you can buy on the open market have been out long enough for their sellers to figure any of this out (assuming they care, which I doubt).

 
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jabberwocky

Well-Known Member
I don't buy that 2wd is the holy grail of ebikes. I mean, motorcycles designed around extreme off road riding are still RWD and they have gobs more power than any ebike. My EMTB has an average mid-drive (Shimano E8000) and can climb stuff I can barely walk up. If you're climbing, almost all your traction is in back anyway. Dual motor bikes are cool and all and I'm sure perform well, but its added complexity, cost and weight for (IMO) not much benefit. If you want more power just make the motor bigger instead of adding a second one.
 

Jon A

Active Member
Region
USA
My commute is on the longer side - 21mi each way. I find that it takes me too long to get to work and I would like to cut down on the time by riding an e-bike instead. However, I do not know whether to get a Class 1 (20 mph) or a Class 3 (28 mph).

If I could average more than 20 mph on my commute, I would win back a whole hour in the day. That is my goal with an e-bike. Yes, I might also be able to ride to work more days per week too, which would increase the volume of my riding, but my main goal is to save time (and still be priviliged enough to ride my bike to work and back 😊).
You can easily do that on an E-bike. I think it would be a smart purchase for you. I would suggest a powerful Class 3 (or Class 3+) with a decent sized battery. You're in pretty good shape so accomplishing the above shouldn't be much of an issue for you.

On my manual fatbike (also a fatbike fan here) I average 13-14 MPH on pavement (relatively "flat," only about 500 ft elevation gain in 20 miles) and 23-24 MPH on my Dengfu E06 with a 1000W Ultra motor when ridden with the same effort in PAS 3 out of 5. I do have it tuned so you have to pedal pretty hard to get max power, and that's pedaling pretty hard on both bikes. When ridden that way my useful range is about 30 Miles with the onboard 14 Ah battery. So if you want to get to work less sweaty you could bump up the assist a bit more to maintain that speed and still make it 20 miles pretty easily, assuming you'd recharge at work. If you want to make the round trip at that speed, you'll need a significantly bigger battery (or live with a slower average speed).
 

K PierreR

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I don't agree with that last point. Just for starters here in CA the upper speed limit on assist is 28 mph. With proper attention to braking, lights etc. I have yet to see any issue after many thousands of street commute miles across multiple bikes and years. But you do have to take the speed seriously and use top end components, right down to the top quality headset with steel races, resilient frame, hand built wheels with top quality rims and spokes and so on. 32-34 mph sustained cruises on flat ground are attainable with the right gearing to allow an assist. The one accident I had was a mindless motorist who t-boned me while I was riding in a bike lane at 15 mph.

As to illegality, that is also arguable since I am doing the same thing ebike manufacturers are doing en masse. Outputwise, yes I can peak above the legal limit going up a hill... but so will most of the over-the-counter ebikes sold in the USA. And looks are deceiving. Actual output is scaled well back thanks to a fair bit of tuning - mostly to the back motor, but also to the front. I may or may not have mentioned that the front motor's sweet spot (traction vs. battery drain) is about 250w of peak output. As to rear motor, on flat ground it won't exceed 400-450w output. My Bullitt cargo bike is much further under the limit as I will typically cruise at about 450w total output between both motors. I'm running about 20-22 mph at that power level. that bike's front motor is wound so it will provide max torque at low wheel rpms and melt away as speed increases, which is when the rear motor starts to take over, so while I get results from both motors, past about 22 mph the front has hit its rpm limit and is contributing essentially a placeholder max of 40w (just enough to eliminate friction and let the rear motor be all it can be). So... the idea is the front motor gets you off the line, taking the bite off the drivetrain that a mid drive would otherwise deliver. So in addition to low power usage you have little to no additional drivetrain wear, which is what people hate about mid drives.

The third 2wd bike, whose dashcam made that video uses dual geared hubs and on pedal assist in a stiff headwind, yeah its over the limit at around 1kw between both motors... but again so are most other 48v storebought bikes in the USA with just one motor. That bike is geared so I work hard to be at that top speed so I am putting a fair bit of collaborative effort in to reach the speed you see. On-motor (PAS) it runs out of oomph right at about 28 and I can get it to 30-32; especially with a little tailwind or the right downslope.

None of the 2wd bikes you can buy on the open market have been out long enough for their sellers to figure any of this out (assuming they care, which I doubt).

I don't even know where to begin to address your answer. I am not even sure what I am understanding is what was in your head.at the time you wrote this. You seem to be mixing up battery watts power draw with motor watts output. I am unsure because I know what it takes to go 28-30 mph on a 20 mile commute with a fat e bike and things just are not adding up here. I am not saying you are wrong, I just can't add it up, especially for commercially available bikes. You sounded like you believe that most of them are safe at 30 mph. I think we have vastly different opinions on what is safe and what is an acceptable duty rating. Maybe I am the odd ball out here and all these bikes are as capable or more than mine.
 

PSm

New Member
Region
USA
How much faster is a Class 1 E-bike than an equivalent non-e-bike, and how much faster is a Class 3 e-bike than a Class 1 e-bike in the real world?

I have seen another thread on this forum asking what everyone's cruising speed is, but that did not answer my question, and so I pose it differently:

I do not own an e-bike yet. I am seriously considering getting one - hence this question.

I commute regularly on my acoustic bike (read non-electrically powered, traditional pedal bike). This is a heavy steel-frame fat bike with panniers and frame bag. It is a Surly Pugsley.

Here are my rides for 2021 thus far:
View attachment 93697
That brings my average speed on the Fat Pug to 13mph on the nose (1280mi / 98 hours).

My commute is on the longer side - 21mi each way. I find that it takes me too long to get to work and I would like to cut down on the time by riding an e-bike instead. However, I do not know whether to get a Class 1 (20 mph) or a Class 3 (28 mph). I need the forum community to help me through your experiences with your e-bikes, please? I don't think it will be too hard to sustain almost 20 mph on a Class1 e-bike, given the fairly flat routes I commute on. However, I would like to know how hard it is to sustain close to 28 mph on a Class 3 bike? Wind resistance increases exponentially, which means it will need a LOT more power to sustain 28 mph than 20 mph.

Can anyone tell me more about your experience? Please understand that I am not so much interested in short distance top speeds. Rather, I am keen to understand what average speeds one is able to sustain with an e-bike under real-world conditions. If anyone here has both a Class 1 and a Class 3 e-bike, I would be very interested in talking to you.
Thanks!
Coachman
Definitely a Class 3 ebike!

As a fit rider, and for the aerobic exercise, I have biked 6000 miles over the past year or so, with a Juiced Cross Current Air 350w rear hub motor. With moderate hills, typically ride 20-30 miles each ride 4 days a week. Generally average 18mph. When time trialing it and sweating, 20 mph. For 40-50 mile rides, average about 16+ mph. For 60 mile rides, about 15mph using lower assist levels.

Got a Ride1UP Roadster v2 a few months ago, and love it. 33 lbs, single speed, belt drive. On a flat route for 25 miles, averaged 20+ mph with boost level 1. Generally get 20 mile range on assist level 3 averaging 18-20 mph. Did a 60 mile ride with 90% of it motor off, saving assist for hills, at about 14mph.

For a commuter bike, if it was me, definitely a Class 3 bike with throttle available! Throttle is great when starting from a dead stop, and when dealing with traffic!
 
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I'm new to ebike, and just bought this Sondors Fold XS a couple months ago. I switched out the seat for a Selle Royal Respiro. I can hit 25 mph in "unlimited" mode, but would like get to 30+ if possible (and not spending $$$ on a new controller, display, throttle, etc.). The 48T chain wheel is way too small combined with the 14Tx28T freewheel at "high" speeds. Beyond about 17 mph my legs are pedaling faster than an F1's crankshaft! I'd really like to install a 56T chain wheel if it won't hit the frame. Great discussion here! 👍
 

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Jon A

Active Member
Region
USA
Please don't take this the wrong way, but honestly I'm not sure I'd feel safe on a bike like that over 20 MPH, much less 30.
 

PSm

New Member
Region
USA
Forgot to mention, due to cars, road quality, and general safety (as well as wind resistance), I've found that I don't expect to be averaging over 20mph for 20+ mile rides. Only on separated bike paths, or good roads without cars, would I get sustained higher speeds.

With both my Ride1UP Roadster v2 and 2017 Juiced Crosscurrent Air, I can easily hold 24+ mph for an extended period but not for many miles continuously, and with both I've reached a max speed of ~42mph going downhill blasting at high rpm on a long downhill in an aerodynamic tuck. Not recommended though, unless you're sure your bike is in top mechanical condition, you're a very experienced rider, and road/traffic conditions are suitable!
 

ruffruff

Well-Known Member
Said it once I'll say it again,
If you get class 3 you can always go down in classes.
If you get class 1 you can never go up in class...unless you do a modification.
 

K PierreR

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I'm new to ebike, and just bought this Sondors Fold XS a couple months ago. I switched out the seat for a Selle Royal Respiro. I can hit 25 mph in "unlimited" mode, but would like get to 30+ if possible (and not spending $$$ on a new controller, display, throttle, etc.). The 48T chain wheel is way too small combined with the 14Tx28T freewheel at "high" speeds. Beyond about 17 mph my legs are pedaling faster than an F1's crankshaft! I'd really like to install a 56T chain wheel if it won't hit the frame. Great discussion here! 👍
Unless the bike is 750 watts, you are unlikely to hit 30 mph. That said, changing out the cassette is far more effective than the chainring. 48 to 56 is a change of 17% A change from 14 tooth down to 12 tooth in the rear is the same change and going down to 11 tooth is 27% increase
 
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Unless the bike is 750 watts, you are unlikely to hit 30 mph. That said, changing out the cassette is far more effective than the chainring. 48 to 56 is a change of 17% A change from 14 tooth down to 12 tooth in the rear is the same change and going down to 11 tooth is 27% increase
Hi. Yes the Fold XS is 750 watts and 80nM, but my bike shop says it's really 1000W (?). With accessories, it tips the scales at 75+ pounds. The rear gears are freewheel, not cassette, for what that's worth. I assumed replacing the chainring would be simpler, but I'd also be open to reducing the top (7th) gear sprocket by 15% or so. Thoughts?
 
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Postscript: at 74 years old, a really fast pedaling cadence is no longer in my toolbox. IMO, the Sondors' top gear ratio is more suitable for a top speed of <18mph.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I don't even know where to begin to address your answer. I am not even sure what I am understanding is what was in your head.at the time you wrote this. You seem to be mixing up battery watts power draw with motor watts output. I am unsure because I know what it takes to go 28-30 mph on a 20 mile commute with a fat e bike and things just are not adding up here. I am not saying you are wrong, I just can't add it up, especially for commercially available bikes. You sounded like you believe that most of them are safe at 30 mph. I think we have vastly different opinions on what is safe and what is an acceptable duty rating. Maybe I am the odd ball out here and all these bikes are as capable or more than mine.
No. It sounds like we're not connecting here. I'd say a R&M Class 3 is safe at its rated speed, as its components are meant expressly to be safe at such speeds. But a lot of other bikes - just because they can go that fast doesn't mean they were built with wheels and brakes in particular that are up to the task.

But thats not what you said. You made a black-and-white proclamation:

"Bicycles are not really meant to go more than 25".

Thats demonstrably inaccurate. You can *feel* that way, but that is not the same as it being a true fact about the hardware. And since notoriously over-protective regulatory authorities set the limit higher than you did, I'd use that as an opening premise that your statement is indeed wrong... with more to follow as you saw. The rest followed your statement that my bike was illegal - I question the validity of that since by the plain (and meaningless) 750w measure I'm over, but so are many (read: most) others in the retail market, and mine are as I stated using nowhere near the power you probably think they are to do their work.

etc. etc.
 

K PierreR

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
No. It sounds like we're not connecting here. I'd say a R&M Class 3 is safe at its rated speed, as its components are meant expressly to be safe at such speeds. But a lot of other bikes - just because they can go that fast doesn't mean they were built with wheels and brakes in particular that are up to the task.

But thats not what you said. You made a black-and-white proclamation:

"Bicycles are not really meant to go more than 25".

Thats demonstrably inaccurate. You can *feel* that way, but that is not the same as it being a true fact about the hardware. And since notoriously over-protective regulatory authorities set the limit higher than you did, I'd use that as an opening premise that your statement is indeed wrong... with more to follow as you saw. The rest followed your statement that my bike was illegal - I question the validity of that since by the plain (and meaningless) 750w measure I'm over, but so are many (read: most) others in the retail market, and mine are as I stated using nowhere near the power you probably think they are to do their work.

etc. etc.
We are on a different page all right. I am stuck here in the rust belt where we are charged with producing really safe products to keep us out of the news and court rooms. E Bike offerings in the US are currently in their infancy with hundreds of back yard manufacturers offering many products of questionable integrity. Assuming that because a manufacturer puts out a product and advertises that it will go 28mph does not mean that it is safe to do so. To sue them is likely to be suing a desk and a telephone. Eventually there will be a handful of manufacturers putting out safe products.

I will stick with my 25mph general statement unless your bike costs about $5k plus. When you go from 15 mph to 30 mph you quadruple the killing and maiming power of a bike. You have a reputation for being knowledgeable on E bikes and carry some weight for new people jumping in. Do you really want to stick to that bolded statement and have someone go out with their new $1,399.95 e bike and go 28 mph believing that they are on a product that is really safe to do that.

My statement reflects a higher sense of fiduciary responsibility to less knowledgeable people and that is where my, "So called lie about safety blank statement" comes from.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Yeah I never said anyone can build a safe bike that travels at the legal 28 mph limit. You are throwing up a lot of straw man arguments above that are frankly bogus. Nobody is saying the things you are hanging your hat on above.

With that said about the inherent invalidity of said straw men, my bikes do tend to cost in the range you describe. In fact I wish I could get away with only $5k as I'm usually well beyond that. BUT that is about my focusing on using the best equipment. I can do safety for a lot less. My Stormtrooper build ...
  1. uses a chromoly Motobecane Lurch frame I rescued, had fluxed and then stripped and powdercoated. Frame was $200. Scan was $60 at an auto transmission shop and powder coating was another $60. This is an extremely strong frame.
  2. Magura MT5e 4-piston brakes, arguably the best brakes available for an ebike. When I bought them - $90 per axle as new take-offs from an ebike store selling them in Germany on Ebay. If you aren't impatient or stupid you'll pay about $125 per axle now.
  3. 203mm rotors front and rear that are 2.3mm thick - Tektro downhill rotors that are about $25 each. Better even than the Magura rotors that themselves are thicker than the standard 1.8mm.
  4. Nextie 90mm triangular carbon fiber rims with DT Swiss Champion spokes, steel-race/sealed off-brand but known-solid hubs. ($130). A professional wheel build here with proper spokes is where the real money is. The c/f rims are rated for 250kg and really overkill for this bike. I could have easily done what I have done on two other bikes (*like the fatty I pictured above) and used Origin8 double-wall alloy rims and saved about $400 per axle.
  5. BBSHD kit. Nothing special there.
  6. 12ah Luna Wolf pack, which is potted and crash/waterproof. But also much more expensive than a top quality USA made pack from Bicycle Motor Works (which I also own several of)
Doing a quick tally - I've done it before as I have toyed with selling that bike - I am into it for about $3500. But again thats with parts that I didn't need to spend so much on. I could do that bike for ... $2500? and it will be a *safe* Class 3. Want to spend much less? The Mongoose Dolomite is a DIY favorite that needs new brakes and new wheels to be a safe ride at Class 3 speeds.

Just because you cannot do it, or do not know how, doesn't mean it cannot be done. thats your biggest mistake here in thinking your knowledge level is sufficient to do the job. And it pains me to say that as I've seen the work you have done on other projects. You're an accomplished builder but clearly your personal prejudices are coloring your analysis.

And yes. I will and do go on record as saying you are wrong and you can build bikes that are inherently safe at the speeds legally allowed and driven at. As someone who works in motor vehicle liability every day - and who rides a bike of some sort every day nestled amongst automobiles as I do it - EVERYTHING I DO is geared towards furthering the platform safely. EVERYTHING. This is one more thing you don't know, to be brutally frank, since you've going there yourself.

What is not safe? Could be the rider. Could be the motorist who doesn't react properly to the rider. But its not the bike that was thoughtfully built to meet the task asked of it. Regardless of whether you like it or not.

"You quadruple the killing and maiming power (etc.)." That sounds catchy but again is hyperbole. Perhaps I quadruple the killing and maiming power of a kitten if I throw it at someone. That doesn't make the kitten inherently dangerous.

Look we all get it going faster entails some responsibility with regard to mechanical preparation - same goes for rider responsibility. No one is saying otherwise except you, when you claim others said it.