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D

Deleted member 803

Guest
Found a father and son who lusted after my Easy Motion Neo Carbon. So I said, "ok, lets find the next e-bike to ride. I want a fast, powerful road bike that is well integrated and gets a fail safe range of 30 miles. After test riding umpteen zillion bikes here are my impressions

a. Bosch mid-drives leave me cold. They are slow to speed but climb well. Great display! Lots of gear changes. Relatively smooth power delivery. I rode the Haibike Trekking and it is well-made but just didn't have that special something that made me go ooooooo.

b. I rode the Specialized Turbo X. Very well integrated bike. Mediocre power and, in my opinion designed for well conditioned riders who want some boost. VERY smooth power delivery. Tiny display that I simply could not see while riding. The bike was comfortable and the front suspension forks performed well. Free wheeling on direct drive rear hubs is a bummer for me as I am a rapid pumper/coast kind of guy and the magneto effect wants to slow you down substantially. Also, big fat tires that left me with a vague road feel. The Turbo S is much more expensive and a punishing ride on all but the smoothest of roads.

c. I rode the Stromer ST2. Bottom line is that while this is a very good heavy bike, the value proposition and the software issues just can't be overcome. If the bike were $4500, I would strongly consider.

d. M1 Spitzing R-Fantastic bike, yum, yum, yum, but must wait to win the Mega Million Lottery.

e. Ohm XU700-165. A very nice bike that I liked a lot except for the body geometry (sit up and beg) and the very short handlebar. Can't get over the big ugly motor and tacked on battery from an aesthetic point of view.

f. Easy Motion Nitro-the natural upgrade to the Neo Carbon. Beautiful looking bike that BH simply erred on. Took the old rear hub design of last years model (except for a larger motor) and added the smaller 9V battery. Almost no difference in torque, slightly higher speed, and way less range. A miss on all technical fronts except for looks.

g. Oh so want the 2016 Focus Aventura Speed. I like the impulse motor much more and the 3.0 version has even more torque and is quieter. Love the Alfine 11 mated to a Gates Carbon Belt. They integrated the battery into the downtube and gave it a massive battery. The display sucks as it is large, easy to read, integrates with your phone, and provides GPS tracking. The bike comes with beautiful integrated lights front and rear, great fenders, pump, and rear rack. The only problem is that its not available til October (maybe late September)

While I am price sensitive I will go to $5K for a bike. I want a forward leaning road geometry, a 30mph speed pedelec that has no free wheel lag, a very solid groupset (XO, XT/XTR, 105/Ultegra), around 60-70nm or torque, Formula R1/Shimano/Magura MT7 disk brakes, and a front air suspension of medium quailty with remote lock out.

In the meantime, I will continue to use my Neo Carbon for my 10-15 mile daily rides until something better comes along.

Please come beat me up with your opinions.......
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
You write really comprehensive reviews with no apparent bias. I liked the one on the Miscio, or whatever the stupid name was.

I like links to websites that are written in German (Focus). They'll have some feature like Doppelscheinwerfer, and I'll think "Gee, I wish I had that, whatever it is."

The price of 4600 Eur seems to include a hefty VAT, and with the weak Euro, I think we know the obvious answer? I assume if you knocked 20% off and did the currency translation, it would be around $4000. Maybe not.

I never know how much torque is enough. I don't have problems with fairly basic shift systems. If you want the Alfine, they charge for it, big Euros. Good brakes are the only way to go.

I think it's interesting how they sell at the higher end. How much power assist does it take to cruise along at 30 mph? That's a lot of watts, maybe 700. That's mostly you, pedaling, right? One drive is robust, another thin. Apparently pedal assist is a kind of drug which, when well-managed, gives a great sense of well-being or power, something like that.

Obviously you are enjoying the voyage of discovery. It will be a let-down, wherever you stop.:) What can they possibly do in 2017?
 

Cory151

Active Member
Nice review. Have you tried the izip e-3 dash? Seems like great bang for the buck. The ST-1 platinum seems to fit within all mentioned criteria ( no software) as well, but if you didn't like the ST-2 you probably won't care for the st1.
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
Nice review. Have you tried the izip e-3 dash? Seems like great bang for the buck. The ST-1 platinum seems to fit within all mentioned criteria ( no software) as well, but if you didn't like the ST-2 you probably won't care for the st1.
Thanks Cory:

Personally I don't like i-zip products. Not bad but not exciting. Stromers are just too damn heavy and not the riding position I want. What I'd love is a BMC Alpenchallenge with a 1200W rear hub, a high resolution color display with built-in gps navigation and trip functions, and a Shimano DI2 gearset. OK, I just woke up....LOL
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
You seem to know what you want alright, but why wait for the industry to make it for you? At 86 you don't have long to wait! But you don't appear to be senile so maybe building your own bike is an option?

http://www.rei.com/product/874072/miir-burke-8-speed-bike-2014?cm_mmc=cse_PLA-_-pla-_-8740720003&mr:trackingCode=BEB671AA-794D-E411-AF04-BC305BF82162&mr:referralID=NA&mr:device=c&mr:adType=plaonline&mr:ad=79142377120&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=132753976120&msid=q6oFjbnE_dc|pcrid|79142377120|&lsft=cm_mmc:cse_PLA

First find the bike you want that fits you and suits your bucket list (the REI bike above is just a quick google search find), Bike fit is as you know very important! Personally I like the IGH/belt option you are drawn to also. The 11spd is nice on a push bike but I feel that you don't need that many ratio's on an e bike as you mostly ride around in the higher gears anyway, especially on a hub motor bike. Plenty of range options available with the 8spd for less money and playing with the rear cog and front sprocket will allow you to be able to pedal up to your desired top speed. Low maintenance and shift while stopped is where it works well also.

Lot's of sus fork options out and about with remote lockouts even. You shouldn't need more than an 80mm for mostly road work. Bike fit is as you know very important! Oh wait, I already said that.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=common/home

em3ev, while a chinese based operation I just can't say enough good things about. Paul is an ex-pat that has grown the business into a world class operation that supplies top quality product and service. By using an IGH we are talking front hub motor. While it is not a popular option in the current marketplace for a hub motor I prefer it. With proper setup using torque arms and some common sense while riding I think that safety concerns are a non issue. I wouldn't spec a front hub with a direct drive for the reason you mention of parasitic drag. But the Mac geared hub motor that em3ev sells is a proven motor that has the ability to achieve your torque and speed goals no problem. For a kit deal they are hard to beat.

Toss a Cycle Analyst in for a very easy to read display that is easily programable and will tell you more about what is going on with your system than any of the bikes you mention.

The bonus is that you should be able to put a bike that suits you to a T for a couple of grand or so less than the 5k you have in your budget.
Thanks, I'm not into kits. I want a purpose built e-bike frame with integrated (hidden) behavior including cables, wiring, batteries, and motor. Front hub motors on an aggressive road bike at high speed will suffer from poor handling. I may be old but I tend to ride like a bat out of hell..If I was younger and could actually bend over to service the bike, I would never go for an IGH as it adds weight and is slow to shift (relative to a standard derailleur). If you've ever ridden a well set up DuraAce groupset you'd understand.

On the IGH 8-speed Nexus or Alfine hubs I find the ratios not suitable for my type of riding and very slow to shift. The Alfine 11 seems the much better setup as the gaps between gears is smaller. Everyone has a certain cadence they are comfortable with and, given the terrain, you want the right gearing to accommodate otherwise your cadence speeds up or slows down.
 

Marko

Active Member
g. Oh so want the 2016 Focus Aventura Speed. I like the impulse motor much more and the 3.0 version has even more torque and is quieter. Love the Alfine 11 mated to a Gates Carbon Belt. They integrated the battery into the downtube and gave it a massive battery. The display sucks as it is large, easy to read, integrates with your phone, and provides GPS tracking. The bike comes with beautiful integrated lights front and rear, great fenders, pump, and rear rack. The only problem is that its not available til October (maybe late September)
While I think they could have tried to integrate the display a bit better and not leave it sticking out of the handle bar so much, it is a nice idea to make the display to communicate with the phone nav app. Apparently they use Naviki software and the maps are based on OpenStreetMap. This has the added advantage that software updates are easy and the maps are more up-to-date. The display will show direction arrows turn by turn and some other basic info like the streetnames and remaining distance which is really all you need to navigate.

As for Shimano hub gear shifting speeds I find them excellent and very fast (well actually I have experience only with 7-speed) . Also, you can shift when not moving and you can shift from 1 to 7 or vice versa with one twist whereas in derailleur you need to shift one or two at a time and there is no shifting standing still.
 
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Losmeister

New Member
So ... I have been researching like mad. PLan on commuting 22 miles into and out of SF, as I live in San Rafael. You mentioned in another thread that the mid-drive on the Focus works well with climbs, and thatyou test rode in SF. Do you live in SF? I work at UCSF Mission Bay.. I want electric enhanced cycling, as I have gotten out of shape. And this would be a way for me to get back in shape and not drive on highways. Am thinking aventura speed w/ the belt and the 11 speed hub, fenders lights and all. Any
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
So ... I have been researching like mad. PLan on commuting 22 miles into and out of SF, as I live in San Rafael. You mentioned in another thread that the mid-drive on the Focus works well with climbs, and thatyou test rode in SF. Do you live in SF? I work at UCSF Mission Bay.. I want electric enhanced cycling, as I have gotten out of shape. And this would be a way for me to get back in shape and not drive on highways. Am thinking aventura speed w/ the belt and the 11 speed hub, fenders lights and all. Any
Please do yourself a favor and ride a rear hub and a mid drive to understand the real differences between the two. The Impulse mid-drive will not feel as quick off the line and requires a little more effort to speed. However, it has significantly more toque than a rear hub and so the assistance up hills is better. Given the traffic from SR to SF, and the hills, you will probably be better off riding slightly less zoomy and have more torque and better range with a mid-drive. On the Focus brand, the engineering and build quality is sensational. If you can wait a few months, I suggest you look at the 2016 Impulse Integrale 11. It marries a gates belt drive to a shimano alfine 11 rear hub and has a new EVO Rs mid-drive that has more zip and ups the torque to 80nm.

here is the link to the bike:

http://www.kalkhoff-bikes.com

It is coming in Sept/October (according to my dealer)
 

EbikeR2

Member
Found a father and son who lusted after my Easy Motion Neo Carbon. So I said, "ok, lets find the next e-bike to ride. I want a fast, powerful road bike that is well integrated and gets a fail safe range of 30 miles. After test riding umpteen zillion bikes here are my impressions

a. Bosch mid-drives leave me cold. They are slow to speed but climb well. Great display! Lots of gear changes. Relatively smooth power delivery. I rode the Haibike Trekking and it is well-made but just didn't have that special something that made me go ooooooo.

b. I rode the Specialized Turbo X. Very well integrated bike. Mediocre power and, in my opinion designed for well conditioned riders who want some boost. VERY smooth power delivery. Tiny display that I simply could not see while riding. The bike was comfortable and the front suspension forks performed well. Free wheeling on direct drive rear hubs is a bummer for me as I am a rapid pumper/coast kind of guy and the magneto effect wants to slow you down substantially. Also, big fat tires that left me with a vague road feel. The Turbo S is much more expensive and a punishing ride on all but the smoothest of roads.

c. I rode the Stromer ST2. Bottom line is that while this is a very good heavy bike, the value proposition and the software issues just can't be overcome. If the bike were $4500, I would strongly consider.

d. M1 Spitzing R-Fantastic bike, yum, yum, yum, but must wait to win the Mega Million Lottery.

e. Ohm XU700-165. A very nice bike that I liked a lot except for the body geometry (sit up and beg) and the very short handlebar. Can't get over the big ugly motor and tacked on battery from an aesthetic point of view.

f. Easy Motion Nitro-the natural upgrade to the Neo Carbon. Beautiful looking bike that BH simply erred on. Took the old rear hub design of last years model (except for a larger motor) and added the smaller 9V battery. Almost no difference in torque, slightly higher speed, and way less range. A miss on all technical fronts except for looks.

g. Oh so want the 2016 Focus Aventura Speed. I like the impulse motor much more and the 3.0 version has even more torque and is quieter. Love the Alfine 11 mated to a Gates Carbon Belt. They integrated the battery into the downtube and gave it a massive battery. The display sucks as it is large, easy to read, integrates with your phone, and provides GPS tracking. The bike comes with beautiful integrated lights front and rear, great fenders, pump, and rear rack. The only problem is that its not available til October (maybe late September)

While I am price sensitive I will go to $5K for a bike. I want a forward leaning road geometry, a 30mph speed pedelec that has no free wheel lag, a very solid groupset (XO, XT/XTR, 105/Ultegra), around 60-70nm or torque, Formula R1/Shimano/Magura MT7 disk brakes, and a front air suspension of medium quailty with remote lock out.

In the meantime, I will continue to use my Neo Carbon for my 10-15 mile daily rides until something better comes along.

Please come beat me up with your opinions.......
At least you know what you want! Have you always biked recreationally?
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
Please do yourself a favor and ride a rear hub and a mid drive to understand the real differences between the two. The Impulse mid-drive will not feel as quick off the line and requires a little more effort to speed. However, it has significantly more toque than a rear hub and so the assistance up hills is better. Given the traffic from SR to SF, and the hills, you will probably be better off riding slightly less zoomy and have more torque and better range with a mid-drive. On the Focus brand, the engineering and build quality is sensational. If you can wait a few months, I suggest you look at the 2016 Impulse Integrale 11. It marries a gates belt drive to a shimano alfine 11 rear hub and has a new EVO Rs mid-drive that has more zip and ups the torque to 80nm.

here is the link to the bike:

http://www.kalkhoff-bikes.com

It is coming in Sept/October (according to my dealer)

Mid drives don't make any more torque than comparable hub motors. They're all going up, but there's not much difference.
My Stromer (rear hub) is much faster acclerating than the Haibike (mid drive) in all conditions, including climbing. But given enough hills it would get hot and slow down, there is the mid drives advantage over a direct drive hub, but still doesn't apply to a geared hub.
There is no "better".

With bike components, "Good" = Expensive = LIGHT WEIGHT as the over riding priority. As you move up the groupo lineups and pay more and more you are paying to get lighter and lighter equipment. Not BETTER, lighter. THAT is the overriding marketing concern in high end bikes, weight. As that is what people will pay ridiculous money for.
Now on an Ebike, with 2-4 times the power being transmitted through the drive train. And an extra 20-25lbs of weight to pull, is it REALLY a concern or even smart money to spend more to get a few GRAMS shaved from components THAT MIGHT NOT BE A STRONG as the heavier pieces they just replaced in Shimano's lineup. ;)
 
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D

Deleted member 803

Guest
Since I sold my bike a few days ago and the bike I want to try is delayed, I succumbed and bought another e-bike in the interim. It is an ok bike but it will suffice for 4-6 months (at which point I will sell it and get what I want). I rode all types of motors on the hills of San Francisco and I can tell you that the torque on a mid-drive is significantly greater. I tried a hill right outside of New Wheel on a rear geared and direct drive motors. I had to lower gearing substantially and push. I then tried a mid-drive (from Kalkhoff) and, while slower to speed, took me up the hill (albeit slowly) with much less effort. This is not to say I was disappointed with my geared rear hub Neo Carbon, in fact I just loved it. For most of the hills in Santa Cruz county I could enter hill climbs at significant speed which gave me a strong initial boost up the hill. I was reticent to sell as it was just the perfect bike for my needs. However, I am a bleeding edge person who loves the experience and education of evolving technology.

There will be a practically new and very low mileage Stromer ST2 for sale in Q1 2016. I'll post pictures when it is available.
 

Adrian

Active Member
From the specs I've seen, the reported torque of the average hub motor (30 - 40Nm with the odd exception going higher) is way below that of the average mid drive (60-80 with the stronger ones up to 120Nm). These are from motors <= 750W.
 

Adrian

Active Member
Yes you did. Under their news section they mention the above bike. It is called "Schwabing"
Interesting. They say it's an "urban" bike so I wonder if they will have a legal version and a "race" version. They can't fake it with a believable, "it's meant for off-road use" with that one though.
 

EbikeR2

Member
Since I sold my bike a few days ago and the bike I want to try is delayed, I succumbed and bought another e-bike in the interim. It is an ok bike but it will suffice for 4-6 months (at which point I will sell it and get what I want). I rode all types of motors on the hills of San Francisco and I can tell you that the torque on a mid-drive is significantly greater. I tried a hill right outside of New Wheel on a rear geared and direct drive motors. I had to lower gearing substantially and push. I then tried a mid-drive (from Kalkhoff) and, while slower to speed, took me up the hill (albeit slowly) with much less effort. This is not to say I was disappointed with my geared rear hub Neo Carbon, in fact I just loved it. For most of the hills in Santa Cruz county I could enter hill climbs at significant speed which gave me a strong initial boost up the hill. I was reticent to sell as it was just the perfect bike for my needs. However, I am a bleeding edge person who loves the experience and education of evolving technology.

There will be a practically new and very low mileage Stromer ST2 for sale in Q1 2016. I'll post pictures when it is available.
You started e-biking a year ago -- what bikes have you been on so far? Easy motion and Stromer?