Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely already know....

So I spent an entire day working to improve them. Some stuff worked, some didn't. Some seemed like a move in the right direction, some the wrong.

So I started looking for a "my favorite" setup, the whole thing, that looked like it might work for me, with the idea I could trim it here and there. All that messing around did teach me enough to have some very general ideas of what I was looking for.

Enter the Frey "Smooth" programming, found here (using a Google search), towards the end of their very informative article (page 11 of 16).

The early part of the article provides some of the latest thinking regarding each line item for all 4 of the pages, including the pages populated with the Bafang supplied settings used on recent motors - up to the point they employed the "pedal first" technology I believe.

Anyway, I installed the "Smooth" set up pretty much line for line. The entire thing, then I test rode it. BIG GRIN!!!!

I believe MANY guys will REALLY enjoy it. It is so civilized, very powerful, makes riding much more intuitive..... well, I could go on, but it would be easier to say I think it's worth a try to anyone looking to improve the stock Bafang setup without going over the top.

Seriously, start here.....

I did make one notable change, and that was to program PAS 0 like most would program PAS 1. So there is NO PAS 0 on my bike (with no throttle or PAS). I decided I would much rather have 6 PAS levels than 5. Personally, PAS 0 is something I never use! On the Base (1st) page you are given the chance to program PAS 0 though PAS 9. If you are using 5 PAS levels (as I believe many are), you would be interested in PAS 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. Programming PAS 0 adds another to that list.

I lowered the value used in PAS 1 a hair for PAS 0, to 11, then adjusted PAS 1 to 16, PAS 3 to 23, and adjusted the rest (5,7 and 9) to bring the rest into alignment.

Works great.... At low speeds, I have a little better control now over how much power is being used. Prior, I rode mostly on PAS 1 with occasional 2, and 3 on big hills. Now, I can use 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the big hills. I went from 3 PAS settings that I use frequently, to 5. If that makes any sense.....

Only a few miles on the set up right now, but all I see is BIG improvements, with no downside. -Al
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
"Bike had second magnet added to rear wheel for speed sensor! This greatly improves speedo responsiveness as well as assist to remove some lag in PAS start up procedure.
Make sure to change SpdMeter Signal from 1 to 2 to get correct speedo reading."

I thought about doing this some time ago as I have a spare magnet... But then was sidetracked and forgot all about it.
Thanks for the reminder!
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
The more I ride it, the better I like it. The grin just keeps getting bigger....

This setup really allows the Bafang torque sensing to show off what it can do. In PAS 2, where I'm now spending the majority of my time, there is now a range of "usable" watts of 400 or so, from top to bottom. Previously, PAS levels had a range, from top to bottom, of maybe 150 watts. How much you are using still based on conditions, what gear you're in, and how hard you want to pedal.

Bottom line for me while riding in these rolling hills, I used to have to switch PAS levels MUCH more frequently. This set up is MUCH friendlier. There's a BIG overlap in available wattage from one PAS level to the next. You now use the one with the range that suits what you are doing best - NOTHING CRITICAL/fussy to it!

How this is going to affect my range is something I can't wait to see, but will have to wait a while. Will be going "up" home for the summer in a couple of days, and this bike is staying here.

Now seriously considering a similar bike for use up there. If that happens, rest assured it will have this "SMOOTH" program installed as it comes out of the box..... -Al
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I'm glad that you found a sweet spot for the programming. 👍
If you get a chance, post screenshots of the stock and then new set of parameters.
Not owning an ultra I'm curious as to what is different, especially the Torque Settings page
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I'm glad that you found a sweet spot for the programming. 👍
If you get a chance, post screenshots of the stock and then new set of parameters.
Not owning an ultra I'm curious as to what is different, especially the Torque Settings page
If you go to that article posted above, you can see the latest "before"/factory Ultra settings in the early part of the article. Then, towards the end of the article, they show the "Smooth" settings I used, literally line for line. The only exception being on the 1st/basic page where I programmed the PAS 0 to be a functional PAS level.

Really noteworthy is the talk about the torque curve used for the torque sensing. The settings they use are WAY different than those supplied/suggested by others for the entire torque sensing page, but especially notable is that top section where they set up a progressive voltage range vs. the factory and most others relatively flat settings. My bet is that is a significant factor in how well this works. -Al
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
If you go to that article posted above, you can see the latest "before"/factory Ultra settings in the early part of the article. Then, towards the end of the article, they show the "Smooth" settings I used, literally line for line. The only exception being on the 1st/basic page where I programmed the PAS 0 to be a functional PAS level.

Really noteworthy is the talk about the torque curve used for the torque sensing. The settings they use are WAY different than those supplied/suggested by others for the entire torque sensing page, but especially notable is that top section where they set up a progressive voltage range vs. the factory and most others relatively flat settings. My bet is that is a significant factor in how well this works. -Al
Ahh ok.
I wasn't sure if the settings at the top of the article were factory. I thought the 100% Speed in all PAS was a user modification?

"Asst0 Limit Spd(%): Range of 0-100% of maximum permitted motor RPM, where 50% would limit motor speed to 50% . At power level 0 the controller will lower current to maintain motor rpm below pre-set % of maximum motor RPM. Speed limiting is done based on motor RPMs not road speed. The throttle might not work in PAS 0 unless this is set to at least 1."

First time I've seen this worded in this manner... That expains what I've been saying about the top road speed for each PAS is different depending on the gear you are in.

My BBS02B stock tuning was way different.
I may just load the first 3 pages of the Smooth and see how it feels... But I do feel that the Ultra is an all together different animal
 
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TNC

Member
Region
USA
Ahh ok.
I wasn't sure if the settings at the top of the article were factory. I thought the 100% Speed in all PAS was a user modification?

"Asst0 Limit Spd(%): Range of 0-100% of maximum permitted motor RPM, where 50% would limit motor speed to 50% . At power level 0 the controller will lower current to maintain motor rpm below pre-set % of maximum motor RPM. Speed limiting is done based on motor RPMs not road speed. The throttle might not work in PAS 0 unless this is set to at least 1."

First time I've seen this worded in this manner... That expains what I've been saying about the top road speed for each PAS is different depending on the gear you are in.

My BBS02B stock tuning was way different.
I may just load the first 3 pages of the Smooth and see how it feels... But I do feel that the Ultra is an all together different animal
I don't have access to see my OEM settings on my BBSHD at the moment, but I thought mine were all set at 100 except for #1, just like pictured in the link. Granted, the HD is not the 02B. Isn't the HD fairly similar to the Ultra with the exception of torque sensing? I'm very new to the Bafang mid-drive and am just starting my fine tuning with mine on an '08 Santa Cruz Nomad used strictly for mountain biking off road. Having read a good bit of negativity about how the OEM power delivery is on the BBSHD, especially used for off road, I was ready for some heartburn on my first outing at our local, fairly technical trail. Surprisingly, it wasn't that bad. Granted, I never got higher than #3, but this is a decently tight, technical trail. Also I'm used to riding a dirt motorcycle, so abrupt power isn't extremely scary.

Still, I can see room for improvement. I like this idea of the two magnets and will definitely try that next ride. To you Ultra guys, wouldn't a lot of these settings for the Ultra be useful for the HD...torque sensing aside? In my limited experience so far, I'm seeing setting numbers that would look a bit like I was planning on trying in some areas of the range of adjustments. Any ideas on this?

Also, how are you folks saving your screenshots of your OEM settings as well as your adjusted settings. I'm no computer guru, but I didn't have any trouble loading the driver, program, etc., for changing settings in a new Windows 10 laptop. However, when I try to use "save" or "save as" on a given screen shot of settings in each tab, I cannot access the file later. It shows up in my "Downloads" list, but when I click on it I get a millisecond flash of what looks like the screenshot I saved under the title I saved, but it disappears.
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I don't have access to see my OEM settings on my BBSHD at the moment, but I thought mine were all set at 100 except for #1, just like pictured in the link. Granted, the HD is not the 02B. Isn't the HD fairly similar to the Ultra with the exception of torque sensing? I'm very new to the Bafang mid-drive and am just starting my fine tuning with mine on an '08 Santa Cruz Nomad used strictly for mountain biking off road. Having read a good bit of negativity about how the OEM power delivery is on the BBSHD, especially used for off road, I was ready for some heartburn on my first outing at our local, fairly technical trail. Surprisingly, it wasn't that bad. Granted, I never got higher than #3, but this is a decently tight, technical trail. Also I'm used to riding a dirt motorcycle, so abrupt power isn't extremely scary.

Still, I can see room for improvement. I like this idea of the two magnets and will definitely try that next ride. To you Ultra guys, wouldn't a lot of these settings for the Ultra be useful for the HD...torque sensing aside? In my limited experience so far, I'm seeing setting numbers that would look a bit like I was planning on trying in some areas of the range of adjustments. Any ideas on this?

Also, how are you folks saving your screenshots of your OEM settings as well as your adjusted settings. I'm no computer guru, but I didn't have any trouble loading the driver, program, etc., for changing settings in a new Windows 10 laptop. However, when I try to use "save" or "save as" on a given screen shot of settings in each tab, I cannot access the file later. It shows up in my "Downloads" list, but when I click on it I get a millisecond flash of what looks like the screenshot I saved under the title I saved, but it disappears.
I'd put the HD in the same group as the rest of the BBS series, not the Ultra.
To me the Torque sensor makes the Ultra, ultra different.

As for saving screenshots... Look on your keyboard, typically on the top row for a key marked Print Screen. It may be a multi purpose key that requires you to hit Function or Shift at the same time. At that point it is copied to the Clipboard and can be Pasted into an Image Softwares new blank document such as PhotoShop. I never tried, but you may also be able to use something such as Word as it can accept the Paste command.

"Save as" in the Bafang Software is glitchy. As a work around at the start of a new file I copy and paste the previous file while its in a folder and then just rename before opening.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
"Bike had second magnet added to rear wheel for speed sensor! This greatly improves speedo responsiveness as well as assist to remove some lag in PAS start up procedure.
Make sure to change SpdMeter Signal from 1 to 2 to get correct speedo reading."

I thought about doing this some time ago as I have a spare magnet... But then was sidetracked and forgot all about it.
Thanks for the reminder!
Something I found after I wrote about this myself: One magnet = one point of failure over time.


I went up to 4 magnets and that gave me a super smooth response... and 4 failure points. What I learned from this is that - over time - apparently there are a lot more signal failures than we realize when a wheel is rotating, and the motor handles these very gracefully on the display when they happen with one magnet. When you have 4 magnets, recovery is not graceful at all and you see major fluctuations. 22mph seems to be some kind of threshold for this graceful recovery (22 and below with 4 magnets = no issues. 23+ and it starts missing a magnet read here or there). But I went back to first two and then one magnet before I really took the time to figure out exactly what was going on.

2 magnets did provide a reliable reading but at that point I was unconvinced the benefit was worth fixing a system that wasn't really broken in the first place and I went back to a single magnet.

The one long term useful thing I got out of the exercise was the smaller magnets that do less of a job of throwing off the wheel balance at hi rpms (only noticeable if you have the bike up on a stand).
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
"Bike had second magnet added to rear wheel for speed sensor! This greatly improves speedo responsiveness as well as assist to remove some lag in PAS start up procedure.
Make sure to change SpdMeter Signal from 1 to 2 to get correct speedo reading."

I thought about doing this some time ago as I have a spare magnet... But then was sidetracked and forgot all about it.
Thanks for the reminder!
I stack a neodymium battery on top of the sensor mag. Bob’s your uncle!
 

theemartymac

Well-Known Member
Thanks Al, Very timely as I just got around to trying out the programming cable today.

I did have to do 2 things to get my cable connected:

1. After the cable was connected the first time, windows installed stock drivers that didn't work. Checked the "optional updates" in Windows update, and a new one was sitting there waiting.
2. I also had to choose "Run as administrator" to get the Frey app to allow me to change the com port. Worked great after that.

I used the stock "Smooth" profile from the Frey article. Test ride around the neighborhood was short, but very promising. I'll be commuting to work the next 2 days, so we'll see how it performs on my 40+km return trip
 

theemartymac

Well-Known Member
c357038fc8b3ba1b17826e9047429689.jpg


WELL DAMN!

What an improvement. This should be the stock program from the factory. Seriously! :)

I found the Frey "Smooth" setting were not only noticeably smoother and more progressive across the board, but I only used the throttle to top up for a hill once on my commute - compared to maybe a half dozen times normally - and I got at least 10-15% better range while wanting for nothing. Running in PAS 4 Sport (and not sparing the whip) I was watching my voltage scale, and it was obvious that it wasn't maxing out unnecessarily and wasting energy to heat compared to observations with the stock settings. It would get to 80% on most hills which was more than adequate, and only hit the max when I added thumb throttle. Slow speed performance with much improved, and the torque sensor response was damn near biblical. I have ordered a second spoke magnet (Plus spares) to try a 2-magnet setup simply to satisfy my curiosity. We'll see how that works out...

I'm sold! Thanks Frey for refining/posting the tune, and Al for posting it here for us to find!
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Thanks for getting back with your report. I was hoping it wasn't just me! I had the same impression that it was using less power at lower settings. Areas where it used to pull 135-150 watts might be down under 100 now with the same cadence/effort. Geez, hard to say for sure. One thing IS for sure, I can't wait to get more time on it!
 

theemartymac

Well-Known Member
Thanks for getting back with your report. I was hoping it wasn't just me! I had the same impression that it was using less power at lower settings. Areas where it used to pull 135-150 watts might be down under 100 now with the same cadence/effort. Geez, hard to say for sure. One thing IS for sure, I can't wait to get more time on it!
It's definitely being more efficient. I'll have to compare several days rides to make a good evaluation as it's still cool enough here in the early mornings (Single-digits Celsius) that I'm not getting peak range out of my batteries anyway. But it's safe to say there is a definite improvement in the efficiency, and your estimations certainly seem to match my preliminary observations. I'm running hot for my commute of course, so I'll need to try a couple of leisurely PAS 2 fun rides on the weekend to see if the results are as apparent for me in the lower end of the range.
 

smorgasbord

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I've already done some customizations, the easiest was the "Limit Current %" on the "Basic" page. Here's a comparison:

Luna ApolloSmoothSmorg
Assit0:111
Assit1:301511
Assit2:352020
Assit3:403031
Assit4:454541
Assit5:555252
Assit6:606064
Assit7:707076
Assit8:808088
Assit9:100100100

I'm going to stick with my settings as I really like them. Starting with a low "11" assist on PAS 1 is really nice for me as it makes the bike ride like an unassisted "analog" bike, good for times I want a workout. I also don't understand how the Smooth settings were made. PAS1 to PAS2 is only a 5 jump, but then PAS2 to PAS3 is a 10, followed by a 15 and then a 7? That doesn't seem right. My spacing gives an accelerating rate of increasing assist, which makes sense to me. EDIT: I should say that I'm using all 9 PAS levels; if your bike only allows 5, then the even numbers (2,4,6,8) are skipped and that may make you want to readjust the odd number values.

I've ridden with the above for dozens of trips 30-45 miles each on both level and pretty steep terrain.

Also, I need to spend some time understanding the Smooth Torque page. Some differences from stock:

A) Start(Kg) is always 1 for all (wheel) speeds on Smooth, but is 20 at Spd0 for stock and decreases down to 6 at Spd100. I think this means you don't need to push as hard to get things going in Smooth, which could be a good thing.

B) Full(Kg) is pretty similar, with a larger range (60-15) on Smooth than Stock (50-25).

C) Return(Kg) is 0 across the board on Smooth and ranges 12-4 on Stock. I don't understand this.

D) Smooth drops MinCur% to 5 from 10 on Stock.

E) Smooth puts KeepCur% at 5 across the board, whereas Stock ranges from 4 to 2.

F) CurDecy is 4 across the board for Smooth, whereas Stock ranges from 3 to 2.

There are also major differences on Base Voltage and Delta Voltages, as well as getting rid of Stock's 120 setting for "0 Speed Boost Time" (it's 0).

Anyone know what differences I'd see on a non-Frey Ultra bike?
 
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smorgasbord

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Can someone translate this from the Frey page into English that I can understand:
First is “Delta Voltage” This is relationship between load cell that read rider input in form of pedal pressure applied to voltage system translate this into.
 

Taylor57

Well-Known Member
I have the cable and I think I may try and program my CC to Smooth. Now I just need to get a laptop!
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Can someone translate this from the Frey page into English that I can understand:
I believe this is where the magic lies in the "Smooth" setup. Check out the top section of the Smooth torque sensing page, and compare that to some of the other well known setups. Note the Smooth settings are on a progressive curve, where others are just kind of chunky in comparison.

Sorry for getting back with you so late. I have this string on "watch" but never got a notice for the last few messages....

Fun seeing that the Smooth settings, as good as they are, can STILL be personalized!!
 

smorgasbord

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I believe this is where the magic lies in the "Smooth" setup. Check out the top section of the Smooth torque sensing page, and compare that to some of the other well known setups. Note the Smooth settings are on a progressive curve, where others are just kind of chunky in comparison.

Sorry for getting back with you so late. I have this string on "watch" but never got a notice for the last few messages....

Fun seeing that the Smooth settings, as good as they are, can STILL be personalized!!

Sorry, but I'm not understanding. The sentence I quoted doesn't make sense to me, English-wise. I don't know what Delta Voltage is and that explanation was of absolutely zero help.

I do see that Frey's settings for Delta Voltage are different and more of a ramp, but they're also in the exact opposite direction as stock or other brands. I don't understand why, nor even what this means.

Here's the comparison of Frey to Luna:

DELTA VOLTAGE (MV)

SmoothLuna
0-5 Kg900200
5-10 Kg500200
10-15 Kg300200
15-20 Kg200200
20-30 Kg200400
30-40 Kg200400
40-50 Kg100400
50-60 Kg100400

So why do the "Smooth" setting start out high and go lower while the stock and other brand setting start low and go higher? I can understand why ramping might be smoother, but not why an opposite direction. And since the explanation for "Delta Voltage" is confusing I don't even know what the heck they're talking about.
 

smorgasbord

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I've dived down the Rabbit Hole. Not surprisingly, I've found conflicting information.
On the Throttle tab, there's a Mode setting.

1) Biktrix says: "Current Mode makes your Throttle act as a Full Power ON/OFF Switch.
Speed Mode makes your Throttle act as a Linear Controller (Just like your car's Gas Pedal)"

2) Frey says: "Switching this to Current Mode (instead of Speed mode) has an improvement in the throttle smoothness.
In Speed Mode throttle position correspond to specific calculated bike speed.
In Current Mode throttle position correspond to specific calculated current output."

Who's right?