BarnBoy’s 24V EVG Battery Improvement Project…

Shaunpro3

New Member
Region
USA
City
Naples FL
it's nice to see a well documented project completed and working.
You sound very educated and maybe able to help me which might possibly help yourself , helping me 😋

So,
I have a EBIKE kit, 48v 1000w and trying to for 1 thing to extend my range and the speed I traveled as sure ya know, the faster ya go, the shorter distance able to reach.

So,
I recently learned of and bought a 48v DC PMA ( permanent magnet alternator ) and dreamed how wonderful it could be...

At 1st was dreaming of running my bike off the PMA w no batteries.
Then woke up a bit and determined that if could just keep my batt.s charged better , enabling greater range and better speeds I would be so happy...

I am now seeing it's not so easy !
So to not overcharge my batt.s , I got a charge controller and relay that are set to 55v low and 57.6v high.
I just got batt.s fully charged and I tested this morning going about 17 mph only to find I wasn't able to get as far as usual !
So charged batt s again and un hooked the controller & relay running PMA directly to batt.s .....as while riding I watched my voltage meter and noticed I didn't go fast enough to produce but about 48 - 50 volts ...so trying to do better I only went about 12 mph on way back,. Did make it home and still had some power left...

Not sure if ya know of these pma yet, I sure hope so..
I was wondering of relay wiring, passive or active, rather running the hot or neg. From pma to the relay,
My pma is a super core DC 2 terminal unit at 1800 amps max. And when used and has a load, the pma becomes harder to turn.

So, I am guessing my 1000w bike uses more power than can be made going the speeds I'm able to travel. Guessing. 🥴

If you have any suggestions or referrals I'm so greatful !
And today I thought of a diff. Way that may work better.
Instead of trying to reach power needed to charge my batt s with the pma,
Why not only worry of producing 12 strong volts, hook up a 12v inverter and run the household charger used each day..?

Guessing that prob. Won't work for reasons not considered...?

Again I Thank You !

Shaunpro3
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
You sound very educated and maybe able to help me which might possibly help yourself , helping me 😋

So,
I have a EBIKE kit, 48v 1000w and trying to for 1 thing to extend my range and the speed I traveled as sure ya know, the faster ya go, the shorter distance able to reach.

So,
I recently learned of and bought a 48v DC PMA ( permanent magnet alternator ) and dreamed how wonderful it could be...

At 1st was dreaming of running my bike off the PMA w no batteries.
Then woke up a bit and determined that if could just keep my batt.s charged better , enabling greater range and better speeds I would be so happy...

I am now seeing it's not so easy !
So to not overcharge my batt.s , I got a charge controller and relay that are set to 55v low and 57.6v high.
I just got batt.s fully charged and I tested this morning going about 17 mph only to find I wasn't able to get as far as usual !
So charged batt s again and un hooked the controller & relay running PMA directly to batt.s .....as while riding I watched my voltage meter and noticed I didn't go fast enough to produce but about 48 - 50 volts ...so trying to do better I only went about 12 mph on way back,. Did make it home and still had some power left...

Not sure if ya know of these pma yet, I sure hope so..
I was wondering of relay wiring, passive or active, rather running the hot or neg. From pma to the relay,
My pma is a super core DC 2 terminal unit at 1800 amps max. And when used and has a load, the pma becomes harder to turn.

So, I am guessing my 1000w bike uses more power than can be made going the speeds I'm able to travel. Guessing. 🥴

If you have any suggestions or referrals I'm so greatful !
And today I thought of a diff. Way that may work better.
Instead of trying to reach power needed to charge my batt s with the pma,
Why not only worry of producing 12 strong volts, hook up a 12v inverter and run the household charger used each day..?

Guessing that prob. Won't work for reasons not considered...?

Again I Thank You !

Shaunpro3
Sorry, that is way beyond my limited knowledge. I had to pay close attention to even understand the original post.
 

Shaunpro3

New Member
Region
USA
City
Naples FL
i just figured it out... the only answer to solve my problem is to have 2 batteries, one to power the bike and the other to be charged during..
then switch them ... over and over... what ya think of this wonderful solution my mind proposes...? just finding a answer that solves my issue when there is no other seams so good to me.. lolol
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
@Shaunpro3 - not to be rude, but please post in your own thread for your own topic. Do not hijack others. Worst case Private Message (PM) the person of interest to have a conversation!!

Next, learn basic Physics; especially the topic of CONSERVATION OF ENERGY. Every stage or transfer of energy you mention in your machine is yet another loss of power or energy. You are seeking the “perpetual energy (or motion) machine”. Keep your eyes open on Alibaba, I have seen them posted and manufactured in fine respectable places like Pakistan…. (was BIG into Stirling Engines….) 🤪

Sorry grumpy old engineer that has zero time for debates nor education for perpetual energy fools. If you are serious, research things like super-conductivity. Yep, even that copper wire you use is a resistor and thus a loss element. But I imagine from what you described, FRICTION is your biggest killer…..
-BB

PS- I have some EVG updates with the LED light to post…. (Smoke Alert!)
 

Shaunpro3

New Member
Region
USA
City
Naples FL
i ban see your knowledgeable.. any thoughts or referrals of my batt.s now charging in 25-30% the time they use to take using this new charger... nearly the same charger, makes me wonder if there may be a problem...
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
@Shaunpro3
🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
As you can see in the above thread, I instrumented the crap out of my battery combiner and box to make sure nothing in the system is harmed nor smoked….

So in your case because you are back driving, you need to instrument (measure) all your power/voltage/current inputs and outputs. Batteries are basically big frick’n capacitors and charge with current until too much and 💣

You need to make sure you are WAY under the claimed limits of your battery as a lithium fire is not your average garden hose fire!!! Meaning assume it is going to blow up on you and ask yourself; WWJD….

Now please start your own project thread……………………
-BB

PS- your first LIKE was removed and replaced by the reaction above…..
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
@kauaikit - I completely forgot to give feedback on the “N” versus “E” button. Wow does that ever give a boost (3-4mph boost). Thank you for spotting that error from the photos!

I have not been riding her lately as it has been either too hot or too smoky. But the odometer has over 400 miles. Better than continued dust collection in the barn. But still waiting for my Hydra….

The Battery packs are holding strong! I did a storage discharge to about 80% and they have held that number for the last month plus. Laudation batteries are good!!!!

I did have an issue with the LED lamps I swapped. I went for a late ride and had to turn on the lights. After a while (the longest I have ever used them) I stopped and noticed they were not bright and I could smell smoke. Was still 20 miles from home, it was now way too dark and I didn’t have lights! I made it back home thanks to a wife rescue with lecture. Got stuck with a list of her Honey-Do projects the next day….

But after looking closer I found the lights are battery powered; thought they were 12V from bulb specs and never measured actual. So I’m not so sure how the original bulb survived the two SLA batteries in series. The LED replacement bulbs are 12V and thus smoked. So I soldered x2 in series and added a thermal sponge to take any and all heat off the back side mounted resistors. Much more gooder than the smoked unit (and brighter too!)….🤪
-BB

6EEB07C1-9421-412D-9FD7-1F0EE2C1BC1B.jpegA1224264-6942-437A-8585-D73BFC8DA9DC.jpegC4A3467A-8E49-4009-924D-B59EA44AD9CA.jpeg
 

vkuw

New Member
Region
USA
City
Delray Beach
Hello folks,

Before you ask “WHY?” or comment negatively understand that this bike and I have done many-many miles, so I do feel rather attached to her. “HER” because of the Cranberry Red color; and my wife allowed me to purchase her back in 1999 to commute to work from the ACE train station in San Jose to Silver Creek Valley Road (>12 miles). I have all of the original tools, bags, pump and Service Manual with schematics. I even found my logbook showing over 8.3K miles ridden on her using x4 different SLA sets. Rain or shine, she never let me down; except those darn SLA batteries would barely last a year. Yes, the 24V EGV is too slow, thus why I have a WW Hydra XL on order. But until the molds for my new frame get done and bike in my hands, I really wanted to see if I could get my Cranberry Girl on the road and running again….

So today I took her out of the barn and removed probably 16 years of cobwebs and dust. She is still filthy and will get a sponge bath soon, but I needed to see if she still “WORKS” before I would consider purchasing another pile of batteries. Attached a 24V bench supply I have, limited current to 3A (supply max!); she fired right up with some WELCOME BEEPS and turned the rear wheel just fine. Horn and lights all work too!!! Time for next step; DA BATTERIES….
View attachment 85038

Having read every post on this EVG Forum, I know this post is going to be DARK, unread and unloved. But just in case there is some other fool out there like me that wants to get a simple & safe ebike working again, hopefully you will have an answer/solution below. I really appreciate the inspiration from the writings of @kauaikit, @Court and others to motivate me to start this project. I do hope it turns out sucessful…

First step was to open the old EVG 24V battery box and remove the old 12V 12Ah SLA (sealed lead acid) cells. These buggers weigh approx. 7.7lbs (3.5kg) or 15.5lbs (7kg) together. I remembered I would almost run out of battery as I would ride home from the ACE station. So, GOAL#1 – REDUCE BATTERY PACK WEIGHT (half?) & GOAL #2 – IMPROVE AMP-HOUR.

Today was really fun, as I was rummaging in the barn for all the EVG things, I found a receipt for my first purchased EVG battery replacement pack. Sadly, I was told from the dealer in Santa Cruz it was to be a new one. Some $300 w/ shipping and several weeks later, my first replacement battery pack arrived. It was pretty obvious it was a rebuild unit with all the scratches and pry marks. That lesson educated me to buy batteries from the local brick and mortar. I stopped in to the local Batteries Plus Bulbs today and they offered me a $60 unit, where I need x2 and hit with tax, core charges, etc. That would have been approx. $150 and give me the same performance I had over 20 years ago. Giving GOAL#3 – Cost less than $300. I found a 15Ah SLA on Amazon x2 for <$60 and free shipping. Brick & Mortar is truly dead….

The EVG 24V battery box has two 150x100x100mm compartments for the SLA. I looked at the LiPo RC batteries as per a post in this forum, but they are VERY EXPENSIVE and really need a super special charger to not IGNITE! I saw another forum post where a 36V EVG guy was going to try an array of 18650 cells (15x7), so that gave me an idea to look for maybe a 7s7p or 6s6p pack. I’m taking the sage advice from @kauaikit to do a 6S pack as 7s might be too much voltage (29.4v). To further, I used the bench supply to test the battery warning lights, they seem to match Lithium Ion curves, but I do plan to add a battery measurement display. So today I placed a purchase for x2 6s5p 18650 packs. They measure approx. 110x100x70mm, weigh less than 1.5kg, have integral BPS and come with a small computer brick like AC powered battery charger. Here is my plan, and I would love some advice from battery people like @greeno to make sure I will not be starting fires in the barn as a result of this ½-baked plan! I plan to hard wire parallel both 6s5p packs together with 15A auto blade fuses from the two packs positive terminals. I believe there is enough room in the EVG box to include the two AC powered battery chargers as the EVG pack has a C13 AC port. My question to the forum is, can I just plug in a charger to each battery knowing that the two chargers will be in parallel too. Any issues doing this?? Or do I need to think of paralleling the two packs with x2 current diodes to isolate the chargers??? Also placed on order are new brake pads, tires, and tubes.

So if this works, I will have a new 56Ah, 24V (1.3kWh) battery pack for the Cranberry Girl. That is more than 4 times the range and way less than 1/2 the weight (4kg or 8.8lbs savings!). Including the brake pads, tires & tubes, I am right at $300....

More to come….
-BB
I have the original owners manual along with the title of the bike. I originally had a guy who thought he could fix it and bought a 36v battery and he blew the controller. So I was upset because I couldn't get a controller for it.
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
I have the original owners manual along with the title of the bike. I originally had a guy who thought he could fix it and bought a 36v battery and he blew the controller. So I was upset because I couldn't get a controller for it.
You can buy a controller. There is a guy in Utah that might have parts. I don’t think @kauaikit has any 24V parts…
-BB

Look for Electric Wheels of Utah if the below doesn’t work….
 

sbaussie

New Member
Region
USA
@kauaikit - you must be laughing at me real hard by now. If not you, every LBS in the Pleasanton - Diablo Valley area is laughing at me. I bought a HG41 7speed cassette thinking that would work; WRONG! All LBS told me a 28-11 is not available. I know you showed me several on ePay and thus have one on order. Missed the point that these are DNP screw in style so the whole free wheel ratchet is replaced. Thank you for that lead!!!
And the curse continues! Looks like the ride yesterday took out 2 rear spokes. And none of the LBS had them in stock, so I am grounded for a week or two until they come in. Will post the length needed later. Grrrrrr.......
Notified that the power meter is out for delivery.....
Future packs will be 7s5p. My combiner and the little meters will allow that configuration! So anyone that follows this on their EVG, go 7s5p. You can fit x2. And I’m hoping to get a century out of my packs (if the second arrives!).....
To be continued....
-BB
I have enjoyed all the posts (BB ,Kauaikit) about battery upgrades. I have just rescued a 24V EVG form a horse barn , new seat and a little tlc some new SLA batteries and a little fiddling (brake lever shut off )and she is up and running but range and speed are as expected. I going to use it to go to work 4-5 miles away and a little local cruising . From this last post I am concluding that 2 x 7s5p into the old battery box with divider removed is the way to go. So the questions are
1. suggested battery supplier / brand. Laudation?
2 Using stock charger and .Charger adjustments.
Sure I will have more.Mike
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
Hi Mike and welcome to the forum. So what color did you find??? Show pictures please!!!

Long story short I tried and failed with cheap batteries with claims of unrealistic performance 6s5p packs. @kauaikit convinced my second attempt to be 7s5p packs. I have two packs tied together with diodes to keep the chargers separate for each pack. I didn’t need to remove the divider x2 7s5p packs fit perfectly; just nibbled out holes for the two battery pack meters.

My Laudation packs are still running very strong. A buddy of mine got two 14s2p 21700 packs from Laudation and is having issues with one (acting like one bad cell!). And as expected, seller is no longer communicating. So with that, I can not recommend Laudation 21700 batteries yet I have tested and proven the 18650 packs to be very good….

I use the stock chargers and isolated them with the mentioned diodes (common cathode with packs on anodes and bike load on cathode). @kauaikit uses the stock EVG charger….

The Li-Ion packs are WAY lighter than the SLAs, and give you maybe 5 times the range…

Let us know if you have more questions….
-BB
 

sbaussie

New Member
Region
USA
Thanks BB , there is a lot of Li battery packs out there eg. 7S5P 24V 38Ah Li ion Rechargeable Battery Pack BMS Charger for E Bike Scooter ($107) but I imagine you get what you pay for. I'm fine spending good money for good batteries and really appreciate all the research./ trial and error you and @kauaikit have put into this . Ill get a few pictures (its black model) I use to race road and mountain bikes so have all the bike tools . At one point i was going to swap it all over with super light weight parts and really get the weight down but Chrome moly frames are still heavy and putting $1500 worth of parts did not seem like a good idea haha. . I can solder etc but don't have a lot of electronic savvy but am really good at following instructions (despite what my wife says) ,do you remember what @kauaikit had to do to stock charger?
Thanks again Ill start shopping

Mike
 

sbaussie

New Member
Region
USA
BB any experience thoughts on these , are same size as the sla's .. Mike

DAKOTA LITHIUM 12V 18AH BATTERY

hope Im not breaking any rules posting this link

Mike
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
@sbaussie - I can tell you now that a 38Ah pack is total BS! That would be a 38/5 => 7.6Ah cell, and that doesn’t exist in 18650 nor 21700 cells….

The Dakota batteries are new chem that is the Next Big Thing especially in the solar industry. They are near perfect SLA replacements but with a better/flatter discharge curve…
But 18Ah at 12V in series is just 24V at 18Ah….
-BB


Try them and let us know!!!
-BB
 

sbaussie

New Member
Region
USA
Any thoughts on these 3
laudation 24V16ah electric bicycle battery 24V battery 7S 5P Built-in 25A bms
Laudation 24V 15ah 20ah Li-ion Battery Rechargeable Bicycle E Bike Electric
Laudation 24V 12ah Electric E Bike Battery 7S 5P for 250W 350W Electric Vehicle
I know just enough electrical to be dangerous , These list
  • Rated discharge current (a) 15а , by my calculation that means
  • 15a x 24v = 360 w
will that work for the 400 W heinzmann hub
From ebay ad
  • Rated discharge current (a) 15а
  • Instantaneous maximum discharge current (a) 36a
  • Maximum Continuous Discharge Current (a) 18A
  • The maximum constant charge current (a) 5A
Mike
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
Looking at the wording, sounds like the units I used (check above photos). As you noted, your motor is 400W at 24V (16.6A). A 7s pack will vary from 29.4V to 22.4V (100-20%} so current and power to motor is higher. To compensate, I use two packs in virtual parallel (diodes) to get higher start currents and more range. And I’ve blown 20A blade fuses (25A slow blow are working!)…
Side view below with meters and charger ports showing…..
-BB
image.jpg
 

sbaussie

New Member
Region
USA
Hey BB...it's safe to cut out the center divider, which was only for the SLA batteries. The 36v version doesn't have this divider. And it would have been safe to go w/7s packs. Voltage is speed. :)

So, why so big a battery (10p)? To parallel batteries, you just need the same voltage, different ah is ok. NO diodes or heat sinks needed. And No need to "foam", as the batteries will not move much, maybe just simple pieces of foam to cushion a bit.

I've collected used/donor complete 36v electronics, including their 36v hubs (spares) to someday upgrade the 24v ebikes, though you can still use your 24v rear hub. The 24v hubs are wound for speed, whereas the 36v for torque. The 24v hubs can take 12s-14s voltage. And speed is increased to around 24mph, though no torque. :cool:

I currently have around 20 EVG ebikes, and been riding them the last 10+ years, in all of their configurations in the collection. With the 36v PE (Police Edition) being the most desirable and rarest. I have 6. I've upgraded two with the Golden Motor MP4 rear hubs/throttles/dash display (internal sine-wave controller), and retained the stock controller to power the front/rear lights, brake light (retained left brake handle) & horn. The original battery case houses either a 12s4p or 13s4p battery pack using Tesla Mdl3 21700 cells. Level speed is 28mph+'ish. I've upgraded the rear freewheels to 11t-30t & the front chainring to a 48t (slight case trimming) to assist in the higher speed PAS. The MP4 hubs are dead silent. The upgraded MP5 would now be the rear hub of choice. Nice.

A fully stock EVG 36v ebike with these batteries are 21-22mph level, though I have tried 14s (52v) for speeds to 26mph, so it appears the stock 36v sealed controller has 60v capacitors. It has torque, though a bit noisy. You too will want to remove the 36v electric motor from hub to micro laser weld the one-way bearing as it is only pressed in. As donut eating cops (PE version) tended to hit the full throttle & then spin the bearing & going nowhere fast. :)
Hey kauaikit, watching yours and BB posts , getting ready to swap out batteries on original 24v model / controller . Chatted with BB thru this site yesterday but as it all seems to come back around to you I thought I'd reach out. To clarify
1. 2 x 7s5p will fit (maybe some slight modification to Battery box). these ? wouldnt they give me 32Ah??

laudation 24V16ah electric bicycle battery 24V battery 7S 5P Built-in 25A bms

Anything else I need to consider .
thanks in advance Mike
2. original charger will handle charging ,(they come with a charger anyway). you mention adjusting it to 29.2 is that the 2 little white screws?? How do you know how much to turn?
3. I dont need to install diodes or anything complicated (for me)