Battery Cost: $1,299

mjorg

Member
I was absolutely going to buy a juiced bike. Then I dropped one of the batteries for my present bike and had to replace it (cost $399). I would be buying Juiced to get the big battery so I wouldn't have to carry a second. So, after this event I wanted to see how much a Juiced battery would cost. They cost $1,299 dollars (1/2021). A while back I priced them at $899, which I though was just a little high. But $1,299? I think that price is really, really high. I paid around $1,100 for my present 1,000 watt bike. It works really well for me. I want to give it to my wife to get her into e-bikes, and then get a new one for myself. After accidently destroying a bike battery I realize that it can happen. But in any case you may need to replace batteries over time if you are an avid rider. So, Juiced bikes are off my list. I did talk to Juiced bikes about this, explaining that cost of ownership is always a consideration on consumables such as batteries. They said they had no control over the pricing. Which makes me wonder if this is another company that is "actually" controlled by mainland China. Which l want to avoid, because I want representation here in the US. I want real, timely support (without having to send photographs). I didn't actually "talk" to Juiced bikes. We only communicated by email. It took a few days for them to respond to my initial email...to their sales department. I wonder how quickly responses would come for warranty issues...?
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the 1kWh batteries? Those are going to be expensive even in the aftermarket. I don’t know about the latest wide format batteries. But on my narrow battery Cross Current their are less expensive options out there if you are flexible on battery capacity.
 

Bruce Arnold

Well-Known Member
Their battery prices are a straight rip-off for hundreds of extra dollars.
Maybe it is a rip-off. I'm not so sure. Seems more like the law of supply and demand to me. Juiced Bikes is not trying to be an accessory/spare parts company. They carry some accessories and spare parts for our convenience. Keeping items in stock and processing sales/shipping is an expense for any company. If it's your main product, then you streamline it in order to make it profitable. If it's not your main thing, and you don't sell that much of it, it is going to cost you more per sale than it may be worth financially, although you still want to offer the convenience to your customers of not having to search all over AliExpress for an item. You might even price it high to discourage a lot of trade you don't particularly want to service. The fact that their batteries go out of stock all the time suggests to me that this latter is accurate. If they're not trying to keep them in stock, I reckon they don't really care about selling them.

Think about college textbooks. You might spend $100 for a book you'll use for one semester, maybe even more (haven't priced textbooks lately.) Is that a rip-off? No. It might cost a publisher $50,000 to design, print and distribute a given title, that they know they will only sell a few hundred or thousand copies of. They've got to price it high to get their investment back.

Anyone can get a replacement battery on AliExpress for a lot less. Rather than gripe about Juiced, buy from their competitors. It's how commerce works. I'm told this state of affairs is called capitalism.

If you don't like or are leery of dealing with AliExpress, that's on you, not Juiced Bikes.
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
I don't see much difference between Juiced and Rize. So let's compare batteries and prices.
The Rize batteries consist of LG M36 cells or LG M26, you can surmise which by the Ah figures.
(LG M36 cells confirmed)
In USA 48V 17Ah costs $599

Juiced
48V 12.8Ah costs $699

$100 more for smaller battery. Adjusted for size it's hundreds more even for their smaller batteries. I estimate you'd be paying Juice $250 more for an equivalent 17Ah.
 
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mjorg

Member
I've compared a lot of battery prices after destroying mine. The juiced big battery used to be 21 Ah and cost $899. I only recently noticed the power reduction (19.2 Ah) and price ($1299) increase. You can say that a replacement battery is a an accessory right up to the point yours is either damaged or wears out. Then it becomes a necessity. The battery is the main reason I would buy a Juiced bike. But the most recent Juiced battery is not much more capacity than a Sonders MXS battery (17.5 Ah) which only cost $399. Price is driven by Supply and Demand (and visa versa). I think I'm going with $399. Which means demand is going up at Sonders.
 
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Handlebars

Well-Known Member
That's a serious diff. :) Almost forces a try, right? Any bad safety reports on Sonders? Any reports on which cells they use? Estimated range by owners?
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I've compared a lot of battery prices after destroying mine. The juiced big battery used to be 21 Ah and cost $899. I only recently noticed the power reduction (19 Ah) and price ($1299) increase. You can say that a replacement battery is a an accessory right up to the point yours is either damaged or wears out. Then it becomes a necessity. The battery is the main reason I would buy a Juiced bike. But the most recent Juiced battery is not much more capacity than a Sonders MXS battery (17.5 Ah) which only cost $399. Price is driven by Supply and Demand (and visa versa). I think I'm going with $399. Which means demand is going up at Sonders.
The big battery that you're talking about (52V 21Ah) had a voltage sag.
Also, going 21 to 19.2Ah was not a power reduction, but it was capacity reduction.

They actually increased the power, because of 19.2Ah battery has much better performance, and the real life range does not change much.
I learned this by replacing my Juiced's battery a few times.

Several years ago, when I had my stock battery, (Juiced 48V 10.4Ah, Samsung 26F) I replaced it with Eunorau battery (48V 14Ah, Samsung 35E).

Holy smokes, what a difference. The same 48V battery gave me whole a lot more power.
I heard the similar story when people changed the Samsung 35E powered battery to 30Q, the power increase is dramatic.

Now, I know what you're thinking. Because on the spec sheet, the continuous current rate and max current rate on your battery spec sheet can surpass your motor controller's spec sheet, so you might be thinking that you won't see any power difference just by replacing the battery.

But I was wrong, not all cells are made the same.
Obviously BMS and other factors come in play, but my point is, the 19.2Ah pack is superior to 21Ah.
(I'm not talking about how overpriced 19.2Ah is, I'm not talking about price, I'm just talking about the comparison between 21Ah and 19.2Ah packs)
 

mjorg

Member
The big battery that you're talking about (52V 21Ah) had a voltage sag.
Also, going 21 to 19.2Ah was not a power reduction, but it was capacity reduction.

They actually increased the power, because of 19.2Ah battery has much better performance, and the real life range does not change much.
I learned this by replacing my Juiced's battery a few times.

Several years ago, when I had my stock battery, (Juiced 48V 10.4Ah, Samsung 26F) I replaced it with Eunorau battery (48V 14Ah, Samsung 35E).

Holy smokes, what a difference. The same 48V battery gave me whole a lot more power.
I heard the similar story when people changed the Samsung 35E powered battery to 30Q, the power increase is dramatic.

Now, I know what you're thinking. Because on the spec sheet, the continuous current rate and max current rate on your battery spec sheet can surpass your motor controller's spec sheet, so you might be thinking that you won't see any power difference just by replacing the battery.

But I was wrong, not all cells are made the same
Obviously BMS and other factors come in play, but my point is, the 19.2Ah pack is superior to 21Ah.
(I'm not talking about how overpriced 19.2Ah is, I'm not talking about price, I'm just talking about the comparison between 21Ah and 19.2Ah packs)
Gotcha, this is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I'm looking for a reason to accept such a high price. I think that in the end $1,299 will be just too much. Can you easily swap out 3rd party batteries with Juices bikes? That would certainly be (another) game changer. Thank you for your knowledge.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Gotcha, this is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I'm looking for a reason to accept such a high price. I think that in the end $1,299 will be just too much. Can you easily swap out 3rd party batteries with Juices bikes? That would certainly be (another) game changer. Thank you for your knowledge.
yeah, also there are people that are doing more scientific comparison (with proper equipment and analysis) between Samsung 35E and Samsung 30Q cells, especially in electric skateboard forums (where DIY projects are more popular).

If you pack it 13S4P (meaning, 13 series 4 parallel)
The Samsung 35E pack will give you 48V 14Ah
The Samsung 30Q pack will give you 48V 12Ah

Now, if you only look at the numbers, 48V 14Ah seems like you will get more range out of it, compare to 48V 12Ah battery.
Not so, not in real life.
Because the voltage sag is greater on 35E, the "usable voltage" isn't any different.

So this is why everyone is saying 30Q is a superior cell, because it has the virtually same range as 35E, but more power (higher current drain / burst rate).
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
I believe the parts for that 21AH pack are less than $700. Good money to be made with a 2X margin.

If you made it with 30Q cells, you need a 14x7 array or 98 cells. I recall Lunacycle was asking about $5 each in 2016. Say they cost $4 each wholesale so $400 for cells. Add $50 for a case. Add $25 for BMS. Add $125 for labor. Around $600.

For reference, I bought a Luna Mini in 2017, a 52V6AH shrink wrapped battery (14s-2P or 28 cells) . It was made with 30Q cells, and cost me about $250. I have one other Luna battery made with 30Q cells. They do have a lot of punch, and for me have lasted a while.
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Think about college textbooks. You might spend $100 for a book you'll use for one semester, maybe even more (haven't priced textbooks lately.) Is that a rip-off? No. It might cost a publisher $50,000 to design, print and distribute a given title, that they know they will only sell a few hundred or thousand copies of. They've got to price it high to get their investment back.
College texts are often a stinky rip off, as professors make their friends' works mandatory at outrageous prices. Right hand washes left. And not $100! Then change it every year and you got yourself a nice grift going on .
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
College texts are often a stinky rip off, as professors make their friends' works mandatory at outrageous prices. Right hand washes left. And not $100! Then change it every year and you got yourself a nice grift going on .
I don't know about text book specifically, because it would depend on what kind of text book it is, but I know academic journals and scholarly articles are super expensive.

What people don't realize is that how expensive knowledge can be, and how much time (sometimes decades) and money (millions of $) it would take to get that knowledge.

It's not only about hiring editors and designers.
 

Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
I believe the parts for that 21AH pack are less than $700. Good money to be made with a 2X margin.

If you made it with 30Q cells, you need a 14x7 array or 98 cells. I recall Lunacycle was asking about $5 each in 2016. Say they cost $4 each wholesale so $400 for cells. Add $50 for a case. Add $25 for BMS. Add $125 for labor. Around $600.

For reference, I bought a Luna Mini in 2017, a 52V6AH shrink wrapped battery (14s-2P or 28 cells) . It was made with 30Q cells, and cost me about $250. I have one other Luna battery made with 30Q cells. They do have a lot of punch, and for me have lasted a while.
Even less when buying quantities of components.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
No, the 35E cells provide more punch. 26F are and older cell best suited to 36V packs. That said my 26F 20Ah pack is fine for 18-20A. WTF was juiced thinking...10Ah 26F? Goofy. I’d send a juiced case to Hi-C for an improved build (rebuild).
That's exactly what I said.
35E provided more power.

I will say it again, I had 26F packed 48V 10.4Ah Juiced battery. Then I replaced it with Eunorau 48V 14Ah (35E packed) to get more range.

But the Eunorau battery provided whole a lot more power. (Not just range, but a lot more power)
Yes, the same "48V" battery on paper, they're both 48V, but my point was, the voltage does not mean real life power.

Not all 48V pack provide power equally.

The difference was so drastic (26F vs 35E), which led me believe that there "might" be some 48V pack that are more powerful than some 52V.

What if it was 30Q packed 48V vs 26F packed 52V?
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
I have compiled battery prices. Sondors and Ride1Up have the cheapest per watthour. I can't tell what quality differences there are, but I'm skeptical they're anywhere close enough to justify a price that's twice as high.

As for Juiced telling you they have no control over pricing, that's just a straight up lie... According to Juiced itself. A second battery on the HyperScrambler cost $500, 19.2ah 52v. Vs $1300 buying it separately. Juiced is not losing money selling you a second battery (😅😅😅).

Maybe the profit is slim to none on that second battery, but $500 is still a long way from $1300.

High long term, high usage ownership costs are probably less of a concern for a product that's mostly recreationally used. More profit for Juiced, and the customers don't care until it's too late. See also how Juiced cut it's frame warranty from lifetime to 1 year, and let it's utility models stagnate (CC_) or outright disappear (cargo).

Think about college textbooks. You might spend $100 for a book you'll use for one semester, maybe even more (haven't priced textbooks lately.) Is that a rip-off? No. It might cost a publisher $50,000 to design, print and distribute a given title, that they know they will only sell a few hundred or thousand copies of. They've got to price it high to get their investment back.
College textbooks are an especially bad example in reality. They've increased 10x in price in real terms since the 70s. Probably because of oligarchic consolidation and the buyer can't choose the textbook they use, it's assigned by the prof.
 

indianajo

Well-Known Member
the custom battery rip-off is why I converted a pedal bike with a kit from Luna. $630 840 wh battery had XT90 terminals, which i cut off & replaced with insulated dorman flag terminals. Any other large battery would be $600-800, probably lower the longer I wait. The mount was built by me out of aluminum angle & # 10 screws, and another configuration battery could have a different one for $8 in angle. BTW I have 3 years ~6000 miles and about 150 charges on the luna, so sign of deterioration. With the battery screwed permanently to my frame it is not going to be dropped on the way to the charger.