BH Introduces Yamaha powered eBikes

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
This has been in the works for sometime.

BH had introduced Brose powered Revo bikes in EU sometime last year but nothing with the Yamaha engines. We may need to wait until Interbike 2016 to see if it will be introduced in the U.S market.

Bike Rumor article here: https://bikerumor.com/2016/05/10/bh...h-yamaha-powered-e-lynx-and-its-rebel-family/

I am a fan of Yamaha engines. I have been testing Haibike Sduro RC series and have been really enjoying the solid and smooth ride feel of the Yamaha engines. For some reason, I feel they are very quiet compared to Bosch. The dual chain ring is a big plus.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 

pxpaulx

Well-Known Member
Exciting! Glad to see the Yamaha offered by more than one brand of bike. I wonder if the battery will transfer? The base mount looks the same, they'd have to use the same locking mechanism though, hard to tell from the photos above.

Edit: looks like the same battery locking mount. Very nice!
 
Last edited:

JoePah

Well-Known Member
What concerns me about these unique closed architecture ebikes is that you are married to that motor, and if it needs to be repaired, you are going to a Yamaha dealer. Historically anything yamaha is extremely expensive to repair or replace.. I hope that it is reliable!
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
What percent of the BH bikes are mid-drives in the US? What percent of the US market is the BBS series?

The whole mid-drive thing has sort of faded. Even Bafang, with their Max, where the heck is that, some 18 months after the announcement. Prodeco was going to use the Max, then a Panasonic, then nothing. If they announce at Interbike then it's almost a 2018 story?

I just want to see how completely Pizzi has arfed me over. Next year you have the labels and the hard limits on motor watts. I know one thing. I can climb any hill I want with 1200 watts. At 700 it's less fun and hard, in the wind. So if Larry gets 750 and that's it, I guess I would buy a mid-drive and think unpleasant thoughts about the people who re-wrote all the rules to favor their bikes, the Euro-bikes. Maybe with an IGH and autoshift I won't care. At least wait for the technical advance in mid-drives. Gee, maybe in Hubs, as well.

Nothing these companies do in the US makes any sense. Do we need mid-drives that have so many rough edges? Court has a very specific complaint about the Yamaha system, the PAS, and how it works. I don't want to put up with that kind of stuff. Will we see access to trails, which is where people need mid-drives. How are the 28 mph bikes going to do? Does that change things, bring all those young commuters into the fambly?

It's hard for me to think this stuff matters.
 

flymeaway

Well-Known Member
It's hard for me to think this stuff matters.
I think what matters "most", ultimately, is price. Primarily, price of the bike, then price of the replacement battery. If ebikes are going to be "main streamed" the average user (not the rabid user) has to find them cost effective and of good utility. Very expensive bikes will be the minority purchase.

Court J.
 

pxpaulx

Well-Known Member
I think what matters "most", ultimately, is price. Primarily, price of the bike, then price of the replacement battery. If ebikes are going to be "main streamed" the average user (not the rabid user) has to find them cost effective and of good utility. Very expensive bikes will be the minority purchase.

Court J.
You're definitely right there. For both of our haibike sduro SLs (wife's hardlife and my hardseven), we paid extremely competitive prices compared to a bbshd, luna battery and bikes direct bike (depending on the bike you'd use, I paid more or less the same as that build would be). Sure, it isn't as powerful, but it is a well integrated system of parts and gets my fat butt pretty far for a 400wh battery.

That is part of what I see as appealing with the yamaha - an integrated mid-drive that hits the price points of similarly powered hub drives. Instead of paying the bosch premium, these easy motion bikes will come in at similar prices to their regular hub motor bikes.

If Yamaha is smart (as it appears they might be...), they sell both the motor and the battery to these companies - if the companies build around it, that means they could offer different bikes to the same buyers without necessarily needing to sell a battery with each bike. If I for instance saw a yamaha motor powered fat bike from BH and could use my haibike battery on it, I'd be interested in just the bike. Down the road, keep the battery casings the same and you can introduce recycling exchanges at competitive costs and keep customers long term - lowering costs for consumers and keeping them a customer. It is definitely an expanding industry that will be interesting to watch unfold.

@George S. regarding Court's issue with the Yamaha - I still say his riding style is more exception than rule - I get the complaint that it shouldn't be cutting out at 90rpm cadence, but most riders gear down earlier to go faster over spinning up to 120rpm cadence in a middle gear to get to 20mph. Again, a valid point, but a fringe issue imho. I pedal around 70-75rpm and as a result simply don't ever run into that problem.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
The speed pedelec is probably going to ruin ebiking, but it won't ruin it for me. I just hope ebikes are always the bikes that go less than 20 mph, and the regular cyclists respect them because there is nothing that threatens them.
@George S. ,
I remember the above quote from you. Now, many DIY'ers are into BBS-HD which will go well above 35mph. So, do you think BBS-HD will kill E-bikes?

Last week, I was talking to Steve Lindenau and I brought this issue of Kits -DIY and he mentioned something very important.
Right now, DIY market is an active cauldron and god forbid, let's say, if someone on a DIY bike gets into accident and injures a pedestrian, a skilled trial lawyer could easily kill that DIY business. With an accident involving an E-bike with motors above the legal limit, the case could be catastrophic for the E-bike community. There are definitely problems and it's just that BBS-HD market is very new and things are yet to unfold.

It's hard for me to think this stuff matters.
According to Steve, CEO of BH USA, the U.S e-MTB market is minuscule and it may not matter much right now but it will change.
Steve was the president of Trek Germany for 13 years and he headed Trek's EU marketing team before taking up CEO position at BH USA. So, they are VERY aware of the market here. The combined market share of BBS and all factory mid-drives in the US doesn't even reach half the market of EU pedelecs.

Do you think Yamaha would supply their motors to areas where there is no market and compromise their brand?

I think what matters "most", ultimately, is price. Primarily, price of the bike, then price of the replacement battery. If ebikes are going to be "main streamed" the average user (not the rabid user) has to find them cost effective and of good utility. Very expensive bikes will be the minority purchase.

Court J.
From what I have seen, bikes with Yamaha motors are competitively priced. For a good bike with quality components and well integrated system AND priced in the < $2.5K range, there is a sizable market.
If I am commuting, I may pick a BBSHD but for trail riding, people prefer a refined system.

Commuters may need 750W motor and 750Whr battery but 80% of the market would be very happy with a bike that weighs 45-48lbs, has 500Whr battery and 36V system.

Having seen BH products, I am excited to see this development. A healthy competition is always a good thing.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
The speed pedelec is probably going to ruin ebiking, but it won't ruin it for me. I just hope ebikes are always the bikes that go less than 20 mph, and the regular cyclists respect them because there is nothing that threatens them.
@George S. ,


Ravi said:

"I remember the above quote from you. Now, many DIY'ers are into BBS-HD which will go well above 35mph. So, do you think BBS-HD will kill E-bikes?"




I don’t go over 20 mph, on the flat, except to test out batteries at high loads. Unfortunately, I’ve learned that you need a certain wattage to climb hills, ride into the wind, or both those things. So it’s hard to use wattage to limit speed. The number of people saying they will over-ride their bikes to go over 20 mph is pretty large. So the accident ‘that is waiting to happen’ could be on a Haibike or a Cross Current, both of which travel fast enough to cause some major damage in an accident.

How am I supposed to sell 20 mph, at this point? The owner of the only ebike shop in the area, eSpokes, say that 28 mph will bring a commuter element, young people, into cycling. Maybe it will and maybe that will spur some sales. If nothing else, speed sells. Whether the BBSHD is more of a risk than any other 28 mph ebike, I don’t know. The 1500 watt limit moves the bike into the 30’s, in theory, depending on the bike.

I’ve pointed out to Eric that he is selling a product that will be much ‘more illegal’ next year. He will have to certify the motors, or the builders will, and the limit is 750 watts in California. You have to label the bike, you have to lock it down. The BBSHD is locked down at 1500 watts right now. To get more watts than that, you have to use an external controller, which is a lot of work. That does show that Bafang could go in and lock the motor down at 750 watts, in about 5 minutes. Why did they bring the HD out, when it clearly exceeds US standards?

The hub motors end up in a bad place. The 750 watt standard will not go away, and it’s hard to make a responsive hub with that power, or at least it is harder. Actually, a BBSHD with a 750 watt limit would work well for most people. They could make the 28 mph speed and they could climb most hills. It might bog down in the snow or the sand, but 750 watts is what the ebike establishment said was ‘enough’. If those groups that got the new regs in California want people to end up on mid-drives, the BBS02/HD is still a pretty solid if unrefined motor.

Most people want to ride on paths. The speed limit on bike paths has never been above 20 mph. So the 28 limit, the speed pedelec, is meaningless. In California a Speed Ped is banned from bike paths, which is not so helpful. In Utah they are not banned, but obviously the speed limit is the same.

So I guess your friends in the industry aren’t going to talk to Eric? Is there any dialogue? Do they just wait around, waiting for a severe accident and hope the HD goes away? Could we have some room for people to experiment, but not call them e bikes? They let people build experimental aircraft, and they do fall out of the sky sometimes.

I think they will enforce the 750 watt standard, but it may take a few years. They could tell Bafang not to import anything that isn’t locked down to the US standard. What could Bafang do? OK, so it’s 2018 and all the motors are 750 watts. Will they give people some other category to experiment with, gee, 2 horsepower electric cycles and up? To me a bike is not something that goes much over 20 mph. But there are lots of things that can be made that go faster, but maybe they aren’t bikes or e bikes. Maybe they are low power electric motorcycles.

It’s sad, because you guys could never just enjoy the basic ebike. I think that’s a decent hub and a decent battery, not much else. It should be able to climb hills and overcome the wind, that’s why we wanted the motor. I could probably live with the Monte Capro or the Flux Attack, but they are new motors and I don’t need to be the beta tester.

Everyone ‘broke’ the original concept of the ebike. Eric with his 3000 watt mid-drives and the industry with the 28 mph speed peds that can’t even go on bike paths. That’s really what I said, a year ago, that my concept of an ebike is gone.

I can look at the Ride with GPS logs for all my rides, and my average speed is right around 15 mph.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
George,

You need to get laid. ASAP. :) j/k

Actually, come and join me this summer.
We will go on rides and talk everything and anything about E-bikes.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
George,

You need to get laid. ASAP. :) j/k

Actually, come and join me this summer.
We will go on rides and talk everything and anything about E-bikes.

If you are in Vegas in September, I'm only a couple of hours away from there. Not sure I could keep up with you.

The funny thing is, I know exactly what I want from ebikes, and I pretty much get everything to do what I want. I'm like 98% satsified.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
If you are in Vegas in September, I'm only a couple of hours away from there. Not sure I could keep up with you.

The funny thing is, I know exactly what I want from ebikes, and I pretty much get everything to do what I want. I'm like 98% satsified.
See if you can make it to the Interbike. You'll love it. Eric might have few additional passes. Ronald Roberts has been attending it for quite some time. You'll enjoy meeting Paul, Bafang folks and your all time fav Mr. Pizzi (actually, he is a very nice person) :)
 

Chris Nolte

Well-Known Member
I would prefer to see the Revo line here in the states and I think it's more likely that we'll see that first. I think the Brose motor still has room for improvement, but I am optimistic of what's possible. Especially with big brands like Specialized investing in them. I think there is still a lot to be determined on the longevity, service level, etc on all of these systems. It's exciting to see brands like BH venture into different drive systems, it should smooth out the power delivery inherent in their hub system which depends on just the torque sensor. I think many, especially in NY really like the integrated battery. It will be interesting to see how little ebikes look like ebikes in the future.

It will be cool to experiment with aftermarket systems like COBI as well. It will be easier to integrate with Brose based bikes.