Big name bikes and Bafang

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
Did JEEP actually get involved in the development of ebike?
I know Ford used to let Pedego use their name for their ebikes.

I don't think JEEP branded ebikes are exclusive to Bafang powered ebikes.

ハードテイルe-MTB「JE-279E」

09_o.jpg

ドライブユニットはシマノSTEPS「E8080シリーズ」

11.6Ahの大容量バッテリー

コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
油圧式ディスクブレーキ
フレームに刻まれるロゴ
サイクルコンピューター
i only saw this bike in the very beginning but i havnt seen anything about it in sometime, they only advertise the Quiet Kat Ultra, im not sure they did any developing with Quite Kat, it just looks like your average FS Ultra with a huge price mark up that we have come to expect from anything Quite Kat.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
i only saw this bike in the very beginning but i havnt seen anything about it in sometime, they only advertise the Quiet Kat Ultra, im not sure they did any developing with Quite Kat, it just looks like your average FS Ultra with a huge price mark up that we have come to expect from anything Quite Kat.
oh ok


Jeep_MTB_E-Bike_MFM_7002_Slider.jpg
 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
those top bikes are European thats why they are not advertised here ,no 1000watt motors over there but the hub bikes are new to me!
to be honest they dont look amazing, are they even Bafang Motors? these look like sub Bafang Walmart Bikes! Jeep is all over the place and clearly have no issue putting their name on MIC products ...
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member
those top bikes are European thats why they are not advertised here ,no 1000watt motors over there but the hub bikes are new to me!
to be honest they dont look amazing, are they even Bafang Motors? these look like sub Bafang Walmart Bikes! Jeep is all over the place and clearly have no issue putting their name on MIC products ...
I doubt Jeep was involved in the production.. or R&D.
My guess is that they make money on royalty.

If you want to start up your new ebike company, your ebike company's name won't be recognized.
So you go talk to JEEP and make a royalty deal, every ebike you sell, you make a percentage of profit.

People will buy your ebike because people would go like "oh, it's a JEEP!" and your brand will immediately be recognized.

Or... maybe JEEP just went on Alibaba and decided to sell some ebikes to make quick cash, who knows.
 

Thomas Jaszewski

Well-Known Member
If you go on YouTube and type in 72V BBSHD or 72V Ultra, you will see tons of them.
People usually use ASI BAC controller.
And if you find truthful users or ever take one of those motors in for repairs you might find some reports are disingenuous reports. Users seldom own their screw ups. This shop has seen trashed Ludicrous and Phaserunner motors regularly and arguably has the largest selection of BBSxx series parts in the USA. We see which parts are a fix for typical issues. Nylon gears can be easily turned to peanut butter and are normally never an issue unless overvolted. I believe a simpler Baserunner a better choice. But 72V is another galaxy, suited to the star struck goofs following the pack and building Frankinbikes.

52V batteries Matt wrote about are trash. Period. If posters take the time to review the basics you’ll see it’s all about s*it builds in a case that’s to small for 14s. BTW It’s Bafang that messes with voltage in their firmware. BBSHD rotors are a big seller to BBSHD overvolters. Redesigned early this year with a larger gear shaft. First version will snap.
 

kmccune

Active Member

This study reports a life span in the range of 10 to 15 years, although I presume some efficiencies have been made since it was published.

So far, according to experimentation for electric (EV) and hybrid (HV) vehicles applications, using scale 1 cells built with nickel based positive material the results show:

• more than 1 200 deep cycle (80% d.o.d. EV cycle) with only few percent of energy and power losses,
• more than 500 000 shallow cycles (3% d.o.d. HV cycle) with negligible power losses,
• 2 years of storage testing at full charge and various temperature (20 °C/40 °C/60 °C) leading to a life expectation of 10 years for EV applications and 15 years for HV applications
.

(to be clear, this study examined Li-Ion, not Ni-MH batteries)

This seems inline with the 10 year warranty a Powerwall comes with. (although that's a bit of a loaded subject in itself)
You want hear something creepy? ( with very little relation to the thread) Sandy Munroe( I believe) said.
When He and His group were doing power storage option for the Military," when cycled to 70% of capacity, the lead-acid batteries would last through millions of cycles".
Unbelievable, I do know these days if you run a "FLA" down completely 2-3 times, you are better off to get a new one.
The "Mack" truck I used to drive( it pays to keep one driver in the same truck") had the same"starting" batteries on board after 7 yrs( unheard of in the scene of replacement batteries) they were proprietory "Bulldog brand" and I do not know how much longer they lasted. They saw hard usage too, a big Diesel is hard to turn over.
The point is at the end of the day manufacturers have to make a profit and if you make things too good you will actually put yourself out of business. I really liked the NiMH batteries I used to get for replacements or usage in solar-charged things, I know Li-Ion batteries have a better power to weight ratio, the thing is when the Li batteries die they are gone IME. So treat them well, new tech and super caps are going to make things very interesting in the next few years in the transportation industry.
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
If you go on YouTube and type in 72V BBSHD or 72V Ultra, you will see tons of them.
People usually use ASI BAC controller.
YouTube is filled with tons of something for sure.... but using YouTube as a definitive source of information is scary at best.
Use things as designed. If you go above their ratings realize that you do so at your own risk and in my experience, rarely worth it.
Manufacturers take into account reliability when deciding on ratings. If you push beyond those ratings for ultimate performance, realize that reliability will suffer. Great for short term fun but not for everyday use as youtube videos appear to imply.
 
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reed scott

Well-Known Member
For whatever reason, people here, in this thread and the forums generally, gloss over two big reasons:
1. The name brand motors are designed for the European market, where speeds are capped at 15 mph. (Something like 1-5% of the market is class 3 s pedelecs, which are stifled by regulations in most places besides BE/CH.) Seems like Bafang excels with motors for higher speeds.

Personally, I know nothing about building and designing motors, but it's quite plausible that it's actually harder to make a lower speed motor work well (not long term reliability, just immediate operation), because the motor has to use a lot of finesse in giving small doses of power relative to what the human rider is putting out. If the motor is putting out 5x what you are, well, there's no finessing your way around that.

2. Big tariffs on Chinese e-bikes.

Why do people minimize these? My guess is the industry has a cozy relationship with the name brands, and saying they profit from government regulations doesn't exactly help their cause. And some people are reflexively libertarian and can't stand the thought that their precious bike industry may exploit government in service of profit.

Moreover, R&D on new bikes is expensive. Legacy bike brands already have their hands full designing bikes for actual races, where being cutting edge and winning races is a core part of their brand appeal. They'd probably rather just make an easy buck off ebikes mostly sold to old people (the prime demo in Europe, the prime market). Brands let Bosch and co do all the work, and Bosch can prevent brands from competing prices down (eg Minimum Advertised Pricing), preserving profit margins for itself and the brands. That said, prices even on Bosch bikes do seem to be coming down, and brands are putting more effort into their ebike offerings, especially Specialized, and I'm a fan of Cannondale's Class 3 Canvas 1.

That's not to say that the fancy brands aren't good, they are the gold standard. But the complete vacuum of lower end options just doesn't make sense when every product market has a range of offerings by price, but the European e-bike market... Doesn't.
Fancy brands. I like it. I'm real happy with my unfancy brand Bafang Ultra Frey built bike. :D
 

greeno

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I was referring to 48v controllers that we use 52v with. I think the L--- Ludacrous is only rated for 60v max also. I could be wrong.
More volts are fine to a point. 72v whew. nuts. Happy holidays to all.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
And if you find truthful users or ever take one of those motors in for repairs you might find some reports are disingenuous reports. Users seldom own their screw ups. This shop has seen trashed Ludicrous and Phaserunner motors regularly and arguably has the largest selection of BBSxx series parts in the USA. We see which parts are a fix for typical issues. Nylon gears can be easily turned to peanut butter and are normally never an issue unless overvolted. I believe a simpler Baserunner a better choice. But 72V is another galaxy, suited to the star struck goofs following the pack and building Frankinbikes.

52V batteries Matt wrote about are trash. Period. If posters take the time to review the basics you’ll see it’s all about s*it builds in a case that’s to small for 14s. BTW It’s Bafang that messes with voltage in their firmware. BBSHD rotors are a big seller to BBSHD overvolters. Redesigned early this year with a larger gear shaft. First version will snap.
What shop?

And yeah I don't doubt it.
I didn't think it will be reliable. I just wanted to show what's out there.
 

kmccune

Active Member
I was referring to 48v controllers that we use 52v with. I think the L--- Ludacrous is only rated for 60v max also. I could be wrong.
More volts are fine to a point. 72v whew. nuts. Happy holidays to all.
Just remember the initial voltage on a 60v battery will exceed the rating on many controllers, with a real possibility the components will suffer damage.
If you really want,fast and stupid acceleration( sort of , kind of resembles an ebike) there a Polish built Ebike or trail bike (if you will) that will check the boxes,if you have to license I do not know, you should get insurance anyway with this thing( you could tell from the video on the test- looks like rocket acceleration) Too scary for me, my reflexes are so slow I opted out of Motorcycles early on.
 

pmcdonald

Well-Known Member
Hope everyone had a pleasant Christmas, if that's a holiday you celebrate.

This debate feels like it could go round and round forever as we all justify our purchases.

I feel real insight into the question can only be gained from the people who work with these parts day in and day out. Why do the big brands shun Bafang? You'd need to ask a product manager from one of the big brands.

In lieu of that we do have some very talented founders and designers active here. Some seem quite happy to go the Bafang path, some not.

I suspect the answer comes down to a holistic balance of market positioning and target customers, supply chains, reliability, programming prowess, legal liability, etc.
 

mogulskier

Active Member
The name alone with fetch an immediate recognition and interest. Go beyond that though, and you need to spec the bike and compare it against similarly priced/type. Then you'll see if your buying a quality bike or let name recognition get the better of you without doing your research.
 

goldconch

Active Member
Bafang's hub motors, around in one form or another since 2003, are just one out of a laundry list of cost-effective and easily-supplied/swapped component choices when shopping white-labelled frames made in Chinese state factories (many of them pumping out the same designs). Alibaba lists 38.663 ebike model designs available for manufacturing. For many of these factories, minimum custom bulk order run is just 50 bikes. Almost any of us could equip and build our own branded-series, according to our prefs/specs, pack them in a shipping container, and send them out for distribution, anywhere in the world. There are low barriers to entry, with factory customer service reps more than happy to apply custom brand detail and decals for orders =>50 units (and some will do this for free). It's not required that Bafang hub motors be paired with Bafang batteries unless the distributor "brand" prescribes that in their factory order. My Bafang hub motor certainly doesn't know, or care, that it is being powered by a 14Ah Samsung pack.