Bosch Gen 4 update for Model Year 2022 and onward

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Bosch has released an update to their motor systems. All bikes from Zen will include this update.

Key changes and what does it mean to the end customer?
  1. Increase in torque ratings to 85 Nm while still retaining very compact form factor and very low weight.

  2. Changes to the motor software for example, "Extended Boost" makes it even more intuitive when you need the power. This is extremely useful in technical mountain biking conditions.
    Even in the city riding conditions, with the Rohloff E-14, you can be at the right gear even at a stop and be able to get up to speed very quickly because of the extra torque.

Here are some videos that talk about the update




 

Over50

Well-Known Member

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FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
More detailed information from Electrek... ;)


Bosch has just announced a software update for its new line of e-bike motors that will result in a measurable boost of power and torque.
  • The new update doesn’t require any physical modification of the bike or its Bosch e-bike system.
  • Instead, the update is entirely software-based, unlocking more performance.
  • It’s a move straight out of Tesla’s playbook and should result in a number of happy Bosch-powered e-bike riders.
  • However, don’t rejoice too soon. The software update will only apply to Bosch’s latest line of Gen 4 Performance CX, Cargo Line, and Cargo Line Speed electric bicycle motors.
  • To take advantage of the software update, you’ll need to penetrate Bosch’s walled garden by visiting a Bosch-certified retailer.
  • There, a Bosch-certified technician can perform the software update, increasing the torque of the motors from 75 Nm to 85 Nm.
There’s no word on how much extra power the update will provide, likely because we’re all still pretending that every Bosch drive (and every other EU-spec e-bike motor) is a 250 W motor. But suffice it to say that if a current increase is helping boost torque, then by definition it is also going to increase power. The most noticeable effect is likely to be better hill-climbing performance and speedier acceleration.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
... But suffice it to say that if a current increase is helping boost torque, then by definition it is also going to increase power...

Not necessarily, at least by definition. (I know this is from another source but still it bothers me that they make these mistakes).

At lower rpms the max torque x rpm < max power so one can increase the power output hence torque at lower cadences while not exceeding the max power.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Court just posted this video about the new Nyon which will be available in the US in a few months. It looks very sleek and seems to offer lots of useful functionality. I am most excited about on-board GPS navigation and the lock feature.

 

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
Not necessarily, at least by definition. (I know this is from another source but still it bothers me that they make these mistakes).

At lower rpms the max torque x rpm < max power so one can increase the power output hence torque at lower cadences while not exceeding the max power.

Good point... the author, Micah Toll wrote the book on EBikes and should know better. ;)
 

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
Court just posted this video about the new Nyon which will be available in the US in a few months.
It looks very sleek and seems to offer lots of useful functionality. I am most excited about on-board GPS navigation and the lock feature.


Interesting features... looking forward to hearing more about the locking feature.

Do you know if the Gen 4 increased torque and extended boost are time-limited?
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Good point... the author, Micah Toll wrote the book on EBikes and should know better. ;)

He studied media and journalism for his bachelor's.
His passion was batteries and E-bikes and out of that interest, he wrote the books. Now, he is utilizing his core expertise as a reporter for Electrek.

Do you know if the Gen 4 increased torque and extended boost are time-limited?

I don't think so. It should be applicable for all motors starting Model year 2020 and it is applicable to gen 4 motors not Gen 3 or Gen 2 motors.
 
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FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
He studied media and journalism for his bachelor's.
His passion was batteries and E-bikes and out of that interest, he wrote the books. Now, he is utilizing his core expertise as a reporter for Electrek.

I don't think so. It should be applicable for all motors starting Model year 2020 and it is applicable to gen 4 motors, not Gen 3 or Gen 2 motors.

Interesting, I thought he may have earned a STEM degree.
Glad to see he continues to promote skate, scooter, & Ebike mobility in his reporting for Electrek.


I recently saw a video that stated the Bosch Gen 4 reached peak torque for a limited time... will have to look again.
 

Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
I recently purchased a Cannondale Carbon Neo Lefty 3, which comes with the Bosch Gen 4 motor (including the upgrade)
A couple of days ago I finally got a chance to do a bit of off roading and my first impression is this motor has a ton of torque/power on the hills.
I love this motor.
 

opimax

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Atlanta
I experience the opposite, struggle to get up hills , not a person with a high cadence even when younger , maybe I am spoiled by hub motors and torque. Of the 3 bikes I own by far the lowest power , . Other are a Stromer and Bh nitro
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
struggle to get up hills , not a person with a high cadence even when younger

To really get the best performance out of a Bosch motor, a cadence of ~75 or more would be optimal and on top of that being in the right gear makes a lot of difference.
It certainly requires more rider input than a hub motor.

There are things that really make the Gen 4 system shine :

  • The whole system is very reliable. You never have to worry about jerky pedal assist, the torque sensor works, ALL THE TIME.

  • Because of its lightness and ability to use gearing, it is perfect for XC/ MTB kind of riding. For example, @Deacon Blues' bike the Cannondale Neo Lefty is a very versatile bike... on-road or off-road, it performs non-chalantly and at <40lbs it rides amazingly well. It is quite challenging to build such a bike using hub-motor platform.

  • Stromer has a lot of power and rides amazingly well on smooth paved surfaces but it can not be taken off-road. In comparison, a R-M Delite would handle both on-road and off-road quite well at the expense of little bit of power.
What I have noticed is that very few people use E-bikes strictly for commuting or strictly for mountain biking.
Majority of the people don't do hardcore mountain biking and they just want a capable bike that performs reliably and does well on-road and slight off-road.
This is a niche Bosch Gen 4 sits nicely in!
 

Explorer-1

Well-Known Member
.....
Majority of the people don't do hardcore mountain biking and they just want a capable bike that performs reliably and does well on-road and slight off-road.
This is a niche Bosch Gen 4 sits nicely in!
Your description sounds more like the use case for a hub motor, not something that needs the drive train to allow for aggressive inclines. Maybe your description is missing a couple important details.... but then again since you are talking about the "Majority" (not the majority on this forum) I have to say I thought you agreed a hub motor was better for the "majority".
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Your description sounds more like the use case for a hub motor, not something that needs the drive train to allow for aggressive inclines. Maybe your description is missing a couple important details.... but then again since you are talking about the "Majority" (not the majority on this forum) I have to say I thought you agreed a hub motor was better for the "majority".

Thanks for your comment!

I do agree that a nice geared hub motor would suffice for majority of use cases and it can be done at a price point of ~$2K to $2.5K
The challenge is to pair it with a reliable torque sensor. A system that works day in day out without going bonkers is not a trivial thing.

In my understanding, many of the hub motors are going away not because they are inherently bad but because manufacturers are unable to pair it with a reliable torque sensing system.
Otherwise, hub motors can be an amazing platform for majority of the use cases. It is one reason, Grin Technologies still advocates hub motors and don't sell BBS-HD motors. if you pair a nice MAC motor with a very reliable torque sensor, it will be an amazing performer.

I have more than 15,000+ miles on Stromer bikes, another 8000+ miles on BH bikes and both of them used TMM4 sensors. The BH bike with 750W motor would surge at times, not always but sometime.
Stromer, when working, is a fantastic bike but occasionally, it would have electronic glitches. When things go bad, it can be hard to diagnose and get it back to proper working condition unless you have a very competent dealer. Why do you think companies like Rad, Aventon, Magnum are still sticking with cadence sensors?

They know the trouble involved in putting together a good torque sensor+hub motor system. Juiced was able to make it work to a certain extent but it is not as fool-proof as a Bosch or Yamaha system.

The TMM4 or bottom bracket sensors get exposed to wide magnitude of forces coming from the frame and over time, this lead to complex issues. Whereas in a system like the Yamaha or Bosch, controller and torque sensors are tucked away in a place where they are not exposed to certain kind of forces but still retain high level of accuracy.
From 2016 to 2019, I have ridden mid-drive systems mostly and I never dealt with torque sensor problems, not once. If only we can replicate such a thing on hub motor bikes, it would change things.

Paul has a lot of experience building motors and tuning it with a nice torque sensors and we are hoping to launch the hub motor bike once the testing is complete. That project is in the works and we should have the prototypes ready next month if everything goes well.

In comparison, the Bosch Gen 4 system paired with Gates drive and Rohloff hub will make for a very low maintenance, lightweight and agile bike that can handle varied conditions.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your comment!

I do agree that a nice geared hub motor would suffice for majority of use cases and it can be done at a price point of ~$2K to $2.5K
The challenge is to pair it with a reliable torque sensor. A system that works day in day out without going bonkers is not a trivial thing.

In my understanding, many of the hub motors are going away not because they are inherently bad but because manufacturers are unable to pair it with a reliable torque sensing system.
Otherwise, hub motors can be an amazing platform for majority of the use cases. It is one reason, Grin Technologies still advocates hub motors and don't sell BBS-HD motors. if you pair a nice MAC motor with a very reliable torque sensor, it will be an amazing performer.

I have more than 15,000+ miles on Stromer bikes, another 8000+ miles on BH bikes and both of them used TMM4 sensors. The BH bike with 750W motor would surge at times, not always but sometime.
Stromer, when working, is a fantastic bike but occasionally, it would have electronic glitches. When things go bad, it can be hard to diagnose and get it back to proper working condition unless you have a very competent dealer. Why do you think companies like Rad, Aventon, Magnum are still sticking with cadence sensors?

They know the trouble involved in putting together a good torque sensor+hub motor system. Juiced was able to make it work to a certain extent but it is not as fool-proof as a Bosch or Yamaha system.

The TMM4 or bottom bracket sensors get exposed to wide magnitude of forces coming from the frame and over time, this lead to complex issues. Whereas in a system like the Yamaha or Bosch, controller and torque sensors are tucked away in a place where they are not exposed to certain kind of forces but still retain high level of accuracy.
From 2016 to 2019, I have ridden mid-drive systems mostly and I never dealt with torque sensor problems, not once. If only we can replicate such a thing on hub motor bikes, it would change things.

Paul has a lot of experience building motors and tuning it with a nice torque sensors and we are hoping to launch the hub motor bike once the testing is complete. That project is in the works and we should have the prototypes ready next month if everything goes well.

In comparison, the Bosch Gen 4 system paired with Gates drive and Rohloff hub will make for a very low maintenance, lightweight and agile bike that can handle varied conditions.

Now if they only they made a throttle optional......it would open up a whole new market for them.
 

Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
Now if they only they made a throttle optional......it would open up a whole new market for them.
My wife would be in that market. I tried to sell her on purchasing one of Ravi's new bikes, but if it doesn't have a throttle she doesn't want it. :rolleyes:

My Cannondale Topstone Lefty 3, with the gen 4 motor, went back to the bike shop yesterday, to find out want's making the clicking sound, which is slowly getting worse. I hope it's not gone for long. :(
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
We have ordered a limited quantity of the new NYON units for 2021 models. Here is a close up of the new NYON display.
Note: to support the GPS feature (power hungry), it has a much bigger battery inside and it will also power the display when you remove it from the holder to electronically lock your bike.

Most importantly, this NYON gives an option (to end users) to tweak the assist levels and create custom rider profiles that is more suited for their preference.



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rdowns

Well-Known Member
Also , I love the easy remove so you can electronically lock the bike. I'll take all the options I can get to make my bike safer.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Yay! Very exciting. How expensive an upgrade to add to an existing bike in place of Purion would you guestimate?

From Kiox to NYON would be an easy upgrade path but from Purion to Nyon would require a new control pad + wiring.
Depending on the manufacturer, you are looking at $350-$400ish.
It would be best to spec the bike with Nyon as installing Nyon on a older bike would involve opening the drive unit, new wiring + labor time.

But, on the plus side, it is a very elegant looking display that brings a plethora of useful features like assist level customization, standalone GPS unit, power monitoring, electronic lock... So, a lot of riders would benefit from this device.