Bosch Smart System, Kiox 300, PowerTube 750, eBike Flow App

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, not hard for me to imagine. I have a performance speed motor on a bike with smartphone hub and cobi.bike. Guess how many updates I've seen this year? Nada. Last updates for my systems were July 2000. Nyon and CX seem to get the attention. Sad considering I paid $4300 each for two bikes.
No intent in giving Bosch a pass here. Just keep in mind that the outfit that actually paid Bosch for the motor, battery and display (the bike manufacturer) has some say so in what updates get on Bosch stuff on bikes they made. Those decisions to make changes additions and updates or not can be Bosch's or the bike maker's.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
No intent in giving Bosch a pass here. Just keep in mind that the outfit that actually paid Bosch for the motor, battery and display (the bike manufacturer) has some say so in what updates get on Bosch stuff on bikes they made. Those decisions to make changes additions and updates or not can be Bosch's or the bike maker's.
True, and all the sadder. One could even imagine a conspiracy between Bosch and the bike makers to obsolete their existing products! :)
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Nyon '21 already has in-device firmware update for the Nyon itself, hopefully they can extend to motor system and it isnt hardware prohibitive; anyone know if motor updates for current Gen4 require shops to connect directly to the motor?

Nyon '21 also already has ride customization, albeit for a price, hopefully they open this up for free to all.

All in all looks like there was some co-development for both Nyon and new Smart System but I'm guessing Nyon '21 hit a hardware limitation of the current wiring to the motor controller for all the bells and whistles.

Just please, revamp, from the ground-up the Nyon '21 Navigation and adopt GoogleMaps' api, then enable (for free) some security features like the existing Nyon/Kiox lock AND improve it to sending a holding current to the motor so its impossible to turn the cranks!
 

peterh_nz

Member
Region
New Zealand
Nyon '21 already has in-device firmware update for the Nyon itself, hopefully they can extend to motor system and it isnt hardware prohibitive; anyone know if motor updates for current Gen4 require shops to connect directly to the motor?

Nyon '21 also already has ride customization, albeit for a price, hopefully they open this up for free to all.

All in all looks like there was some co-development for both Nyon and new Smart System but I'm guessing Nyon '21 hit a hardware limitation of the current wiring to the motor controller for all the bells and whistles.

Just please, revamp, from the ground-up the Nyon '21 Navigation and adopt GoogleMaps' api, then enable (for free) some security features like the existing Nyon/Kiox lock AND improve it to sending a holding current to the motor so its impossible to turn the cranks!
In my experience Google maps are not as bicycle centric nor as up to date for bicycle paths as OpenStreetMaps. Therefore I would see moving to Google a regressive step.
 

SPSP2

New Member
Region
Europe
What should have to be changed on kiox/nyon21 to allow updating the motor unit firmware?
And what should have to be changed on kiox to allow user settings the power curves or at least some kind of a constant for multiplying the total motor support? (That allows a finer power reduction by user for longer battery life)
 

Cstefan

Member
Region
USA
City
Seattle, WA
In my experience Google maps are not as bicycle centric nor as up to date for bicycle paths as OpenStreetMaps. Therefore I would see moving to Google a regressive step.
It would be lovely to see them partner with Garmin.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
While disappointing, this is not a major surprise to me and is a standard advancement in higher tech equipment. I buy a system (computers, cell phones, SUV, etc.) as fully loaded and complete as I can for it’s intended use so it will do what I require for years into the future. Corporate think is consistent in this and will only get worse as time goes on. My hope is that Bosch will indeed support what I have for at least the 7 years they’ve stated they will!
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
While disappointing, this is not a major surprise to me and is a standard advancement in higher tech equipment. I buy a system (computers, cell phones, SUV, etc.) as fully loaded and complete as I can for it’s intended use so it will do what I require for years into the future. Corporate think is consistent in this and will only get worse as time goes on. My hope is that Bosch will indeed support what I have for at least the 7 years they’ve stated they will!
Unfortunately, with Bosch, "support" seems to be limited to bug fixes. We won't see any improved functionality. Worse, some of their software, like cobi.bike, takes over the phone so you can' really use any alternative software on that phone.
 

Hasaf

Member
As an example of the Osborne Effect, this is why I decided to go with the Priority Current instead of the Gazelle C380+. I can ride the Current and wait for Gazelle to incorporate the new system. If there were an upgrade path I would have spent the extra for the Gazelle. However, right now anything I get is probably a placeholder.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
As an example of the Osborne Effect, this is why I decided to go with the Priority Current instead of the Gazelle C380+. I can ride the Current
What is the make of the motor of the Priority Current please?
 

Hasaf

Member
What is the make of the motor of the Priority Current please?
Truckrun, but Priority won't say it.

Before you say some form of, "we are talking about bosch, not truck run," the point is that I purchased a less expensive placeholder instead of a more expensive Bosch equipped bike. I hope that when I purchase a more expensive Bosch equipped bike, that I plan to use much longer than the Truck run equipped bike, it will have the newer technology. So, yes, Gazelle will eventually make the sale, but not right now. Further, I think that they, unlike Osborne, will be able to take the slightly deferred purchase pattern.

Before one says, "buy cheap, buy twice," consider, the Priority is ~ 3200 and the C380+ is about 4,800 and I expect the Updated version to be. . . say 5,000. Remember, the updated Gaxalle is entirely guesswork So,
Priority + New Technology Gazelle = ~ 8,200
C380+ + New Technology Gazelle = ~ 9,800
 

SwiftySanders

Member
Region
USA
City
New York, NY
Why
Truckrun, but Priority won't say it.

Before you say some form of, "we are talking about bosch, not truck run," the point is that I purchased a less expensive placeholder instead of a more expensive Bosch equipped bike. I hope that when I purchase a more expensive Bosch equipped bike, that I plan to use much longer than the Truck run equipped bike, it will have the newer technology. So, yes, Gazelle will eventually make the sale, but not right now. Further, I think that they, unlike Osborne, will be able to take the slightly deferred purchase pattern.

Before one says, "buy cheap, buy twice," consider, the Priority is ~ 3200 and the C380+ is about 4,800 and I expect the Updated version to be. . . say 5,000. Remember, the updated Gaxalle is entirely guesswork So,
Priority + New Technology Gazelle = ~ 8,200
C380+ + New Technology Gazelle = ~ 9,800
do you need to upgrade to the new tech? It wont be ready for two years.
 

Hasaf

Member
Why

do you need to upgrade to the new tech? It wont be ready for two years.

I might be impressed enough by it to jump. First I want to see how it shakes out after a couple of years of use.

As far as need, there is very little we actually need. A blanket and a bowl, that about covers it. However, there is a lot that people want. I want to wait and see on this new technology. However, what I have seen makes me interested. Further, I am tired of my current bike and want to ride something newer.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Unfortunately, with Bosch, "support" seems to be limited to bug fixes. We won't see any improved functionality. Worse, some of their software, like cobi.bike, takes over the phone so you can' really use any alternative software on that phone.
BS. The updates/options I’ve received since buying my Trek Allant+7 (X 2) have been a big plus for me. The 85nm update along with the EMTBLite and EMTB have made major battery-saving and climbing improvements to an already great system.
I get that the CX is the favored child but that was part of my value judgement from the beginning. I also get that my Purion display is dead simple and again, was part of my original rationale. I almost lost a brand new iPhone trying a to lash it to my handlebars. I’ve never attempted or needed it since. I do wish Bosch would get their heads out and improve what they have first as there are a very few other simple things I’d like the Purion to do like cadence.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
Great video!
I hope the new batteries will be using active balancing instead of passive & hope the communications backbone is flexible enough to cater for other new battery management method's.
I turn my dark imagination to a bright future (<?>):
Any efforts to Solar charge my new Bosch ebike of the future will be thwarted by the even sturdier requirements of a Bosch only charger.
The tuning device i purchased from a third party (hell of an achievement considering Bosch's AI in their smart system) has just stopped working again, bricking the entire system except for it letting me communicate my endeavors to the Bosch cloud and in-turn government's law-enforcement.
It did this once before when i had the default "Automatic Updates" still turned on but after i turned it off i remember an update that read like a Google changelog:
"Whats new: Minor bug fixes and performance improvements"
Turns out the only thing they changed was to tweak the AI into recognizing the new version of the tuning device.
All of this is useless anyway as the "Guardian Angel", via GPS knew i was going too fast for that corner and that particular path for i received a phone call from the Police, so did my friend who was on another Bosch Smart System ebike who was riding right next to me :)

Is the system open?

Right to repair?
 
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Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
I read this thread out of curiosity.
So far, I can see the new 750 Wh battery. How comes one system is expected to fit all e-bike types? With the existing system, Bosch has provided several battery formats, making it possible to build any e-bike type: from a city e-bike through e-MTB through e-SUV to road and gravel e-bikes. Each e-bike type requires different frame geometry, and specifically, different weight.

I could see a video for new Scott Patron e-Ride electric mountain bikes based on Bosch Smart System. It is clear Scott was fighting with fitting the new battery and the motor in their new e-bike. The outcome has been 26+ kg aluminium, and 24 kg carbon fibre e-bikes (it is very much for an e-MTB). Now, can you imagine making a lightweight gravel e-bike with the new system? Because I cannot.

The future is unclear. I think Bosch would eventually come with other Smart System battery formats. As it is of today, nothing is clear.

In my opinion, Bosch would be better off with rethinking their electronics and software to give the existing and future users a chance instead of enforcing both new software and hardware.
 
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ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
Well, being the software engineer myself and seeing how much software-dependent new Bosch Smart System is, I have a bad news for those who are going to take 1st generation of these devices/bikes - they will be buggy for sure. It will take some time to make it usable, taking into account how the SmarphoneHub/Nyon development/bugfixing went before.

I just got C380+ myself and I would definitely prefer this "old-gen" bike to the new one with just released Bosch Next Gen platform. For my needs, C380+ motor-related stuff works fine and I am generally OK even with so hated Smartphone Hub here (honestly I am more interested in upgrading bike side of C380+ - plan to replace the Enviolo with Kindernay VII IGH).

For a longer-term prospective, I am definitely see the benefits of having the IOT-type of infrastructure around the bike, where 3rd-party devices/services have a way to integrate with bike better. Imagine i.e. a software integration between GoPro and bike, so GoPro starts/stops recording automatically when bike is on/off. Or helmets with lights which are controlled by Bosch remote instead of dedicated remote/phone. It is all possible if Bosch will open the ecosystem for the external vendors - they didn't this on hardware level with old-gen, but they have a great possibility to do this on next-gen platform, thanks to interfaces becomes for software API and not hardware wires. There are lots of possibilities here for the great things, however it will take time to make all this work reliable-enough, so I will get a chance to ride my C380+ for several years and take the next-gen bike not when it is just released, but when it is ready.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
I read this thread out of curiosity.
So far, I can see the new 750 Wh battery. How comes one system is expected to fit all e-bike types? With the existing system, Bosch has provided several battery formats, making it possible to build any e-bike type: from a city e-bike through e-MTB through e-SUV to road and gravel e-bikes. Each e-bike type requires different frame geometry, and specifically, different weight.

I could see a video for new Scott Patron e-Ride electric mountain bikes based on Bosch Smart System. It is clear Scott was fighting with fitting the new battery and the motor in their new e-bike. The outcome has been 26+ kg aluminium, and 24 kg carbon fibre e-bikes (it is very much for an e-MTB). Now, can you imagine making a lightweight gravel e-bike with the new system? Because I cannot.

The future is unclear. I think Bosch would eventually come with other Smart System battery formats. As it is of today, nothing is clear.

In my opinion, Bosch would be better off with rethinking their electronics and software to give the existing and future users a chance instead of enforcing both new software and hardware.
This is the confusion you sometimes get with no publicly visible development roadmap & a secrecy surrounding releases akin to Apple :)
 

NHMike

New Member
Region
USA
Well, being the software engineer myself and seeing how much software-dependent new Bosch Smart System is, I have a bad news for those who are going to take 1st generation of these devices/bikes - they will be buggy for sure
This was a great callout. My dad always said regarding cars "never buy the first year of a model redesign." It's a gamble. Add on top of this the issues with supply chains and companies having to sometimes source components from suppliers who aren't their usual trusted suppliers, and you have the makings for greater potential problems.

I'd like to run my Allant as long as possible and wait for the day when there are significant improvements in things such as battery capacity (the one thing that I saw regarding Smart System that I found interesting) as well as motor weight vs power & torque compared to what's available now.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
This was a great callout. My dad always said regarding cars "never buy the first year of a model redesign." It's a gamble. Add on top of this the issues with supply chains and companies having to sometimes source components from suppliers who aren't their usual trusted suppliers, and you have the makings for greater potential problems.

I'd like to run my Allant as long as possible and wait for the day when there are significant improvements in things such as battery capacity (the one thing that I saw regarding Smart System that I found interesting) as well as motor weight vs power & torque compared to what's available now.
Well, yes and no. Having bought an ‘05 Corvette (the first of the C6 Gen) there were a couple of things they fixed in the next year. The worse was a stupid issue that required manual shifters be put in reverse when shut down, otherwise you risked a dead battery within a few days from some open circuit. They fixed is for ‘06.
My ’19 Rav4 had a gas tank design issue that made it very difficult to fill and that went on with Toyota refusing to address it for years after.
My ‘20 Allant+7 is a first year design and as far as I’m concerned, there are no issues or buggyness. Designs always change but with great satisfaction, I’m keeping and using my 3 Treks with my Bosch drive/battery system as long as I can, just like I use a very old iPad every day.😎👍