Bosch Smart System, Kiox 300, PowerTube 750, eBike Flow App

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
My ‘20 Allant+7 is a first year design and as far as I’m concerned, there are no issues
It might be new from the frame design, etc., but it is using good old and familier Bosch motor/display setup, so the electric part of bike is not new at all. And this is what I ment when talking about risks of first iteration of next-gen platform, not the bike design overall.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
It might be new from the frame design, etc., but it is using good old and familier Bosch motor/display setup, so the electric part of bike is not new at all. And this is what I ment when talking about risks of first iteration of next-gen platform, not the bike design overall.
I believe that was the first year of the 4th Gen CX.
 
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ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
I believe that was the first year of the 4th Gen CX and PowerTube 500.
Probably, but still this is just another generation of the existing platform, not the completely new platform from scratch. What we actually see from Bosch right now is a completely new platform with no backward compatibility and new software - it didn't happen to Bosch e-bike world for decades.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Probably, but still this is just another generation of the existing platform, not the completely new platform from scratch. What we actually see from Bosch right now is a completely new platform with no backward compatibility and new software - it didn't happen to Bosch e-bike world for decades.
Yes, a good job of making the existing installed base obsolete. Those software improvements you CX DU owners got this year, don't expect any more. The smartphone hub has been dead for a while (although I note Trek is going to foist it on Allant 8 buyers yet again this year). I doubt if Kiox owners will see any improvements going forward.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Probably, but still this is just another generation of the existing platform, not the completely new platform from scratch. What we actually see from Bosch right now is a completely new platform with no backward compatibility and new software - it didn't happen to Bosch e-bike world for decades.
We really don’t know this yet. Listening to their CEO, some backward compatibility was hinted at.
(20:09 min)
Maybe I missed it but I didn’t hear of any changes to the CX. It sounded like the Kiox 300 could be used with the existing CX, though my guess would be with fewer features than in the SmartSystem.
 
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retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
We really don’t know this yet. Listening to their CEO, some backward compatibility was hinted at.
(20:09 min)
Maybe I missed it but I didn’t hear of any changes to the CX. It sounded like the Kiox 300 could be used with the existing CX, though my guess would be with fewer features than in the SmartSystem.
We'll just have to see what happens. He's pretty wishy washy regarding what the new stuff means for existing customers. And he was clear that the new system was targeted at the performance CX du, not the Performance Speed DU that I have. But I should blame Trek as much as Bosch for my frustration. After all, Trek chose the components.
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Trek’s first foray with the Bosch Smart System will be with a Rail with the CX motor.
Well, they’re only showing 1 Rail for 2022 on their website and there are no details whatsoever. I would’ve thought they’d go for a commuter bike. Got some inside info?
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
We'll just have to see what happens. He's pretty wishy washy regarding what the new stuff means for existing customers. And he was clear that the new system was targeted at the performance CX du, not the Performance Speed DU that I have. But I should blame Trek as much as Bosch for my frustration. After all, Trek chose the components.
Yup.
 

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
But I should blame Trek as much as Bosch for my frustration. After all, Trek chose the components.
I am probably the only one here, who is pretty satisfied with SmartphoneHub (and I choose it myself as an upgrade for C380+). I know, the potential is much bigger than is implemented right now, but stuff I have is pretty sufficient for my needs and interface is slick and well-readable. Also love the option to control music from the remote - I don't think any other solution for Bosch allows that.
 

Sparky731

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Madison, WI
Well, they’re only showing 1 Rail for 2022 on their website and there are no details whatsoever. I would’ve thought they’d go for a commuter bike. Got some inside info?
Yes, reliable inside info. In fact he said Trek had to go to publication with their printed manuals and marketing flyers 2 days before Bosch‘s public announcement. Tricky timing.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
Apart from some future ideas, anyone know the real reason for the new "system"?
I would have thought that with a new system that includes a motor, battery, charger & controller it would have at least had one new feature on the motor (apart from an easier way to upgrade firmware), perhaps a smarter charger/battery combo (configurable low battery cutoff, configurable end charge parameters, etc.)?
Are insurance companies/government/police coming down harder on manufacturers to detect tampering or something?

So far, from what i see for a system that renders most Bosch ebike parts before it useless you have:
A new controller with a bit of bling?
A motor whereby it's firmware can be upgraded easier, can configure assist modes (just like previous with Nyon), no other new features, no smart features?
A new battery that is the only battery that can be used with the new system and it's new feature is that it has a larger capacity (with added size & weight), no smart features.
A battery charger that is perhaps more efficient, only works with 220-240VAC?, and is a bit lighter, no smart features?
Am i missing some fundamental details on a system for new users right now?

I would have thought a Pandemic would impact manufacture but bolster R&D?
Or am i being too harsh as per usual? :)
 
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SPSP2

New Member
Region
Europe
This is probably due to employment at Bosch, the need for upgrades and the need for price increases.
Many of those new features could be put into the original solution. Above all, the possibility of custom modes and firmware upload. After all, the firmware upgrade is still done via kiox / nion, which knows bluetooth.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Hard to say at this point what the purpose is behind the announcement. It's certainly not a bold step forward. We consumers/riders aren't even the primary customers for this - bike mfgrs are. And some, take Trek as an example, aren't even offering it for 2022, as far as I can see.

Has anyone seen a mfgr with an offering (bike) containing this new system?
 

SPSP2

New Member
Region
Europe
Users have spent a lot of money on ebike, and now a Bosch is announcing that their electronics are outdated. Bosch has a locked system, so the user is forced to upgrade whole ebike over time. It's not just about replacing the fork.
And upgrading only Bosch components is not possible.
 
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ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
Has anyone seen a mfgr with an offering (bike) containing this new system?
They announced just one set of motor-remote-display for now, so don't expect lots of bikes to appear with new system yet.
Apart from some future ideas, anyone know the real reason for the new "system"?
I think this is attempt to proceed with more "open" or at-least 3rd-party compatible model for the e-bike electronics. Modern world and users demand platform where other 3rd-party devices/services can be integrated with the bikes. Original Bosch system was very closed and isolated and I don't think you can realistically change it without fundamental redesign, which they are doing right now.
Users have spent a lot of money on ebike, and now a Bosch is announcing that their electronics are outdated.
Where did their announced it is "outdated"? What I heard was completely opposite - they are willing to support existing systems for the sufficient time so current users can use their bikes. You bike still rides and will continue to ride even after the announcement. What are the exact concerns you have? Let's assume thar new display/controller/battery is compatible with older motor you have on your bike - would you want to pay $1500-$2000 for the upgrade? I don't think so. And 99.9% of owners won't since they are fine with what they have. I am personally enjoying my e-bike and don't care much it is "outdated tech" now.
 

SPSP2

New Member
Region
Europe
My main idea was that development and marketing would now focus on the new features for the new system. Probably only support will remain for the old one. And if I paid for an engine upgrade? I would definitely think about it over time if there used to be compatibility. My whole ebike is much more expensive, especially with new components, and I'm used to it.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
They announced just one set of motor-remote-display for now, so don't expect lots of bikes to appear with new system yet.

I think this is attempt to proceed with more "open" or at-least 3rd-party compatible model for the e-bike electronics. Modern world and users demand platform where other 3rd-party devices/services can be integrated with the bikes. Original Bosch system was very closed and isolated and I don't think you can realistically change it without fundamental redesign, which they are doing right now.
The new system is closed too, in my reading. Only when they publish an API will it be an open system. And Bosch's track record isn't great. IIRC, they took an open source system, and bastardized it into a closed system in the form of the smartphone hub and cobi.bike.
Where did their announced it is "outdated"? What I heard was completely opposite - they are willing to support existing systems for the sufficient time so current users can use their bikes. You bike still rides and will continue to ride even after the announcement. What are the exact concerns you have? Let's assume thar new display/controller/battery is compatible with older motor you have on your bike - would you want to pay $1500-$2000 for the upgrade? I don't think so. And 99.9% of owners won't since they are fine with what they have. I am personally enjoying my e-bike and don't care much it is "outdated tech" now.
They've essentially said that "support" will be limited to bug fixes, if any. We current owners can look forward to NO improvements. And let's Not assume the new system will in any way be backward compatible. They've given no indication of that.
The more interesting part to me is that uptake of the new system appears to be very slow. That means they've got to pay attention to our old, outdated gear for at least another year!
 

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
The new system is closed too, in my reading. Only when they publish an API will it be an open system.
I saw the ads video and I think the ability to integrate with the 3rd-party services is one of the main goals and points in the ads. I believe this is one of the goals they ahve, but I do agree Bosch doesn't have good track record for this yet (and my hope it will change now).
They've essentially said that "support" will be limited to bug fixes, if any.
Was it ever different? I am relatively new to the e-bikes, but in my assumption when I am buying particular bike, I am paying for the features and functionality it has at the moment of purchase, any updates/improvements are not guaranteed (and this is pretty much similar for the hardware - if I am buying a "smart" vacuum cleaner, I can't expect it will start to wash my floors after firmware upgrade, I will have to buy new model for this). E-bikes are closer to cars and electric home appliances in this matter - not to the phones or computers, where functionality mostly coming from software. Can you provide some example how did it work before Smart System was introduced? Was there any particular thing Bosch did to already sold models to improve user experience? I only can think of display upgrades, but Smart System don't have anything to offer here for older users, Nyon display is much more advanced to Kiox 300.

When you are buying i.e. a car and next year new version of it appears, which is better, do you complain to the car manufacturer you can't get same improvements on you previous gen one? Probably no, you just continue to ride it as before (since it didn't get worse automatically when new gen appeared, right?). Why this should be different for e-bikes, which is essentially a similar in the concept it is primarily hardware with software to control it.
 
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