Bosch Smart System, Kiox 300, PowerTube 750, eBike Flow App

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
Two Specialized chargers I'm familiar with are:

SBC-C04 (All full power mid-drive Turbo e-bikes)
Input: 100-240 V AC (interchangeable cable)
Output max: 42 V, 4.0 A DC (168 W)
Weight: 644 g (1 lb 6.7 oz) - I weighed it
Principle: Intelligent Constant Current / Constant Voltage with thermal protection, error codes by LED. Communication & diagnostics by Mission Control (including number of charges and battery health, temperature), software updates by dealer.
Feature: Magnetic Rosenberg battery plug.
Charging empty 604 Wh battery to 100% in 4 h 35 min.

SBC-C06 (All Turbo SL e-bikes)
Input: 100-240 V AC (interchangeable cable)
Output max: 54.6 V, 3A DC (163.8 W)
Weight: 663 g (1 lb 7.4 oz) - I weighed it
Principle: Intelligent Constant Current / Constant Voltage with thermal protection, error codes by LED. Communication & diagnostics by Mission Control (including number of charges and battery health, temperature), software updates by dealer.
Features: Can charge the internal 320 Wh and Range Extender 160 Wh batteries either individually or in parallel (using the SL Y-Cable). The system detects whether both batteries are connected by the Y-Cable and applies charging at lower current to protect the Range Extender and balance both batteries.
Charging empty SL battery in 2 h 35 minutes, Range Extender in 3 h 20 min, both batteries together in 3 h 20 min.

The 2 A Specialized SBC-C05 charger has been discontinued as obsolete.

I have not heard of any Specialized Travel Charger. I only wonder whether any Bosch system can tell you as much of your battery as what you can get for Specialized:

Screenshot_20211028-052251_BLEvo.jpg
 
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webcurl

Well-Known Member
Hmm.
I thought it was normal for a charger from a known brand to be small, lightweight, provide intelligent charging, work internationally, and to be able to output four amperes..

Your baiting finally worked... :)
I cannot find any official figures for Efficiency or PFC (Power Factor Correction - if any) for Specialized or Bosch, you cannot put either companies chargers into an "Intelligent" category, you can with this:

and to a smaller degree this:

The Bosch Compact 2A charger weighs 580g including AC cable.
The Bosch Standard 4A charger weighs 766g including AC cable.
Does Specialized have a 6A charger?

SBC-C04 (All full power mid-drive Turbo e-bikes)
Output max: 42 V, 4.0 A DC (168 W)
Weight: 644 g (1 lb 6.7 oz) - I weighed it
Principle: Intelligent Constant Current / Constant Voltage with thermal protection, error codes by LED. Communication & diagnostics by Mission Control (including number of charges and battery health, temperature), software updates by dealer.
Feature: Magnetic Rosenberg battery plug.
SBC-C06 (All Turbo SL e-bikes)
Output max: 54.6 V, 3A DC (163.8 W)
Weight: 663 g (1 lb 7.4 oz) - I weighed it
Principle: Intelligent Constant Current / Constant Voltage with thermal protection, error codes by LED. Communication & diagnostics by Mission Control (including number of charges and battery health, temperature), software updates by dealer.

You mention "Intelligent Constant Current / Constant Voltage with thermal protection, error codes by LED." - more than 95% of Lithium battery chargers for ebike batteries AND every other device known to man that uses these batteries has this so called intelligence.
The Bosch ebike system has similar communication & diagnostics with min. & max. temperatures over lifetime on top of what is mentioned, however only accessible by the dealer :(
The new Bosch ebike system finally allows users to perform updates, Specialized so far lagging behind at least a few months here! :)
OK, only 1 Bosch charger is compatible with all countries mains power.

Features: Can charge the internal 320 Wh and Range Extender 160 Wh batteries either individually or in parallel (using the SL Y-Cable). The system detects whether both batteries are connected by the Y-Cable and applies charging at lower current to protect the Range Extender and balance both batteries.

"applies charging at lower current to protect..and balance both... - Sounds like an intelligent feature, it's more like a natural feature of putting two paths of electricity together with some diodes perhaps in parallel! Diodes must be intelligent, they are the building blocks to the humble transistor! :)
In this regard at a guess the Bosch dual battery system is more intelligent and also when the Bosch ebike is turned off the internal wiring harnesses are not live.

The 2 A Specialized SBC-C05 charger has been discontinued as obsolete.

I have not heard of any Specialized Travel Charger. I only wonder whether any Bosch system can tell you as much of your battery as what you can get for Specialized:

And because Specialized think a 2A charger should be discontinued, you distribute & copy the idea and think Bosch should too?

Please do not read Specialized marketing & technical documentation and sprout forth as gospel for the rest of the industry!

As after just a quick search... Specialized are not all that perfect either!
 
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Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
Does Specialized have a 6A charger?
No, they don't. Perhaps the benefit is the brand only needs two different chargers and a single app to cover all lines of e-bikes it makes :) The 6 A charger is available for some Giant e-bikes. The 6A Giant charger is large and heavy. Additionally, it uses an adaptor if you want to charge the battery off bike.

If you talk Satiator & al., don't you think such chargers are the first in line to invalidate your warranty, damage the battery, and even cause a fire?

As after just a quick search... Specialized are not all that perfect either!
No e-bike brand is perfect. The best brand is the one that can learn on their own mistakes.

Back on topic: What is the Bosch Smart System e-bike you're buying next? Because I could buy a Specialized Mastermind e-bike (with the new 710 Wh battery and new 2.2 motor) even tomorrow, should I need it :)
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I meant GPS navigation. How on earth can Bosch E-Bike believe they can ever be as good as Garmin or Wahoo? Many Spec and Giant e-bikes come without a display whatsoever. Instead of buying a TCD display for a Spec e-bike, you can use a Garmin or a Wahoo. With Giant RideControl One remotes, a bike computer is the best choice. So simple.

View attachment 104647
Wahoo is far better e-bike display than most of Bosch ones are. And it is configurable. You control e-bike with a handlebar remote, not with a display.
compared to the nyon its pretty primitive. the Nyon is not perfect but has some very good features. the little speedometers shows you where you are on your average while showing real time info. so it gives a lot of info on one screen. maps are not perfect but the Nyon will show you a radius of your range including elevation calculations. it has a lot more info screens too. sorry for the blurry photo it was dark in my shop.
IMG_3477.jpeg
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
the Nyon is not perfect but has some very good features. the little speedometers shows you where you are on your average while showing real time info.
But that's exactly what my Wahoo shows me!
1635474546561.png

I asked for Actual Speed, Distance Ridden, Time Ridden, Clock, Ambient Temperature, e-bike Battery % (works with Range Extender, too), Distance Remaining (route), Cadence, Average Rider Power (over last 3 seconds), Travel Mode, and Average Speed. And that's only the Workout Page! I moved my HR to the Navigation Page. Primitive?!

There is a vertical LED bar, which shows you whether you are above or below either of these parameters:

  • Average Speed, or
  • Average Rider's Power, or
  • Average Heart Rate
Everything as above is configured from a smartphone. Notice deep e-bike integration via ANT+

Beat that, Bosch! Range? Well. Does Nyon show what is your Range Trend? (I hope so). Specialized Mastermind display shows you whether you are gaining or losing on Range at a given ride time. There's one thing Specialized don't want to do: GPS Navigation. That's because you cannot do everything good on a single device. (Garmin, Wahoo, or Hammerhead know their maps and navigation).

1635475522880.png

Four of five screens of the Specialized Mastermind display. You can buy such an e-bike now, not in the undefined future.
Did you know you could tune the motor assistance while you ride here? (Infinite Tune feature).


maps are not perfect but the Nyon will show you a radius of your range including elevation calculations.
How does it help you when you are on a loop ride, exactly?
 
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ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
Stafan, it looks like the combination of your Wahoo and Mastermind can beat Nyon, but these are two devices on you handlebar instead of one (and Wahoo needs to be powered/charged separately from the bike). Also, maps in Nyon has one important advantage over 3rd-party GPS: it can plan the route taking assist level and bike battery charge level into account. As far as I understand, Wahoo can display some e-bike information, which specialized shares via ANT+, but I doubt it can use this data when building a route? Can it calculate for you if you will be able to reach given destination using selected assist level? I don't think so. And Mastermind don't have GPS functionality, so nothing here as well. Looks like there is no alternative to this? Surprise me!
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I like ANT+ but it isn to the most stable thing either. usually my speed sensor and cadence are pretty good but the radar and the lights can be very flaky. bike computers have their bugs too.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
and Wahoo needs to be powered/charged separately from the bike).
17 hours on the battery is not enough? Assume you use a HR Monitor (that needs to be charged separately, too). Another thing to add to Nyon, perhaps? :) (Besides, how does Nyon get the HR data?)
Also, maps in Nyon has one important advantage over 3rd-party GPS: it can plan the route taking assist level and bike battery charge level into account.
The major disadvantage of Nyon maps is the fact they are not focused on cycling, especially in North America.

Surprise me!
Specialized Mission Control involves the Smart Control feature. You can set either of these parameters:
  • Desired distance to be ridden, including expected elevation gain, and the battery % to be left at the ride end, or
  • Desired ride time, and the battery % to be left at the ride end, or
  • Desired threshold of your heart rate.
In each of the described situations, Smart Control is continuously monitoring ride parameters and adjusting assistance as to meet the selected criteria. This feature has been there for a quite while (available for older e-bikes, too). In the picture in post #106, Mastermind display colour scheme is pink, with the word "Smart" as the assist mode name. I have used Smart Control on my test ride of the latest Specialized Tero. I got an e-bike with a 530 Wh battery, and I knew I would ride for not more than 50 km, and with 150 m elevation gain max. I asked for 10% battery left at the end of the ride. Setting Smart Control allowed me to not worry about the range of e-bike I was not familiar with at all. One of the screens shows 70/70% Infinite Tune value. Tero 3.0 with Smart Control detected I had a plenty of battery charge as for my criteria, so it set quite high (but automatically infinitely tune-able) assistance.

Why should the range be actually associated to map, especially if the map is not the best?

I like ANT+ but it isn to the most stable thing either.
bike computers have their bugs too.
The matter is ANT+ gives you the freedom of choice. My ANT+ Specialized TCD display is in my drawer (not used anymore). Nice thing but Wahoo offers more.

but these are two devices on you handlebar instead of one
It depends what Specialized e-bike you're riding. Can you see any display except of Wahoo on my bars (Vado SL)? On my "big" Vado, I actually use both the wired display and Wahoo: I can do GPS navigation using Wahoo and monitor my Cadence and Power on the e-bike display without switching data pages!

1635482957757.png
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
Thank webcurl and ava1ar.

So: When do you buy a new Bosch Smart System e-bike? What brand would that be?
 
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ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
Thank webcurl and ava1ar.

So: When do you buy a new Bosch Smart System e-bike? What brand would that be?
No idea honestly. I am happy with my current one, still working on some upgrades/improvements for it. I have no plans to buy any at least till 2nd gen of Smart System is here and they offer something similar to Nyon for it. The fact Bosch has Smart System now doesn't make my current bike worse.

17 hours on the battery is not enough? Assume you use a HR Monitor (that needs to be charged separately, too). Another thing to add to Nyon, perhaps? :) (Besides, how does Nyon get the HR data?)
Sensor and display are different things. I can ride perfectly fine if I forgot to charge the HR sensor, but if I forgot to change bike computer it will affect the ride and ability to record the it.
 
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Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
if I forgot to change bike computer it will affect the ride and ability to record
Right. That's why I go on my rides with the smartphone in my back pocket to be able to record the ride just in case. Because the smartphone connects to the e-bike, too.
 

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
Specialized Mission Control involves the Smart Control feature. You can set either of these parameters:
  • Desired distance to be ridden, including expected elevation gain, and the battery % to be left at the ride end, or
  • Desired ride time, and the battery % to be left at the ride end, or
  • Desired threshold of your heart rate.
In each of the described situations, Smart Control is continuously monitoring ride parameters and adjusting assistance as to meet the selected criteria. This feature has been there for a quite while (available for older e-bikes, too). In the picture in post #106, Mastermind display colour scheme is pink, with the word "Smart" as the assist mode name. I have used Smart Control on my test ride of the latest Specialized Tero. I got an e-bike with a 530 Wh battery, and I knew I would ride for not more than 50 km, and with 150 m elevation gain max. I asked for 10% battery left at the end of the ride. Setting Smart Control allowed me to not worry about the range of e-bike I was not familiar with at all. One of the screens shows 70/70% Infinite Tune value. Tero 3.0 with Smart Control detected I had a plenty of battery charge as for my criteria, so it set quite high (but automatically infinitely tune-able) assistance.
Well, this is nice functionality to have for sure. Just one thing I noticed here - to use it, you need to use your phone and Mission Control app, right? So we already have 3 devices needed if you want to have navigation and sensors (Wahoo), range trend and other fancy things (Mastermind display) and advanced battery-based assistance adjustment (Mission Control app on the phone). Honestly, I would prefer single device which can do most of this versus 3 different devices, which can do potentially a bit more, but require me to have all 3 with me at any time I want to use particular feature.

Let's stick to Bosch related discussion in this thread going forward. And while I agree that make single device to do everything is not easy, kudos to Bosch for trying and bringing Nyon to life. I believe this is most complete and featured ebike control unit on the market right now. And I hope it's version for Smart System will be even better!
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
you need to use your phone and Mission Control app
I don't need it. Mission Control use is optional. For instance, I only use a single device (Wahoo) on my Vado SL because I don't want to increase the weight of that super-lightweight e-bike (You can see it in the picture). Most of people take their smartphone with them anyway (to be able to answer phone calls for instance). Wahoo will notify you of incoming phone calls, text messages and e-mails (all of it is optional). With full power e-bikes, there will be a display on the bars. You can record your ride with an app on your smartphone (tucked deep into your back pocket) or with a GPS bike computer. Bosch has went the "all on a single device" way, and it makes it as it is. Bosch E-Bike users have to accept that for bad and good.


Let's stick to Bosch related discussion in this thread going forward. And while I agree that make single device to do everything is not easy, kudos to Bosch for trying and bringing Nyon to life. I believe this is most complete and featured ebike control unit on the market right now. And I hope it's version for Smart System will be even better!
I agree the following discussion should be about Bosch E-Bike systems only.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
Thank webcurl and ava1ar.

So: When do you buy a new Bosch Smart System e-bike? What brand would that be?
Hah, without mentioning Specialized, but assumed, it was your intelligent comments about how intelligent it was for Specialized to stop making a 2A charger and how intelligent the rest are compared to Bosch chargers.
When in all fact they are no more intelligent, the only way they are perhaps better is they save a bit of money by all of them being multi voltage/frequency input.
 
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webcurl

Well-Known Member
Thank webcurl and ava1ar.

So: When do you buy a new Bosch Smart System e-bike? What brand would that be?
And Specialized make the motor and the bike.
Bosch don't make the bikes, so you'd have to be a bit of an idiot to expect all the OEM's to have a full range a few months after a Bosch launch.
And they didn't release much so that limits the range that can be released.
And if they are losing their way, how many years have Specialized had the comfort of sitting back and waiting to pounce like an Asian copying/producing machine with no regard for copyright or trademarks? :)
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
So: When do you buy a new Bosch Smart System e-bike? What brand would that be?
And my next e-bike might just be a Tout Terrain/Co-motion/Santos/other titanium frame with Pinion P1.18 or C1.12, Gates CDX:EXP, Grin GMAC Clutch-less Geared Hub Motor on rear, Grin Baserunner or Phaserunner, Grin Cycle Analyst V3 & perhaps a combination of Li-Ion, LiFePO4 & SuperCap to handle huge re-gen currents.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
And Specialized make the motor and the bike.
Bosch don't make the bikes, so you'd have to be a bit of an idiot to expect all the OEM's to have a full range a few months after a Bosch launch.
And they didn't release much so that limits the range that can be released.
And if they are losing their way, how many years have Specialized had the comfort of sitting back and waiting to pounce like an Asian copying/producing machine with no regard for copyright or trademarks? :)
You don't suppose that Bosch was in communication with manufacturers months ago about their upcoming new products? Or do you think Trek, Specialized and RM learned only at the press conference? What universe are you in?
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
You don't suppose that Bosch was in communication with manufacturers months ago about their upcoming new products? Or do you think Trek, Specialized and RM learned only at the press conference? What universe are you in?
Of course they did, but i failed to mention the gravity of what was released (not much) and complications during a worldwide pandemic and therefore desire for other companies to release new models, etc.