brinco Bultaco or M1 Sporttechnik Spitzing r- Pedelec

Lenny

Well-Known Member
M1 Spitzing.
It's already in production and from what I can see way lighter than Bultaco.
We will be receiving one of the Spitzing this summer, feel free to contact us if you need to know anything about the bike/motor/warranty etc.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
So is that a vote for the Bultaco Mike? Any other thoughts?
No, I think great tech. The idea is to increase the gear contact to increase motor torque. I think the idea is great. I read german blogs written in german. Germany is five years ahead of usa .

A similar example is the Pinion P1.9 gearbox on the German Grace One.15. I love the idea of a gearbox to replace the cassette. The only solution for a 2000 rear hub motor, because the motor is too wide for the dropouts. Must move gears to crankset. I spoke with the USA Grace distributor today. Grace is trying to iron out issues with the Pinion. Seems like Pinion is one reason for the delay of the bike. Tell me exactly how many USA bike shops will have the expertise to service such advanced gearboxes? Tell me how long and expensive repairs will be.

German companies have great engineering, design and manufacturing. They are even better at marketing their products to Gullible american consumers. I see a huge void on committing resources to the USA Market beyond that. German companies strike me as the ultimate tease -- disingenuous.

Try this experiment for yourself: call BMW about their eBike in USA. The BMW eBike is one of the highest profile eBikes ever. Just where in the world can I buy one? I called all over to BMW USA. The ignorance was pathetic.

I actually lived in Switzerland for a year in high school. We rode bikes 12 miles each way to school, six days per week. The most fun was riding in the snow. We had a blast! The USA does not have such a bike culture, or severe legal restrictions. Motors suited for european roads may not be effective in usa car-is-king culture. Are German firms simply trying to expand markets or actually provide value to american consumers?

I also have problems with German over-engineering. How much benefit does the motor provide over the Yahama, for example? Yahama motor used in Haibike SDuro makes more sense to me, based on value/cost. Can I buy a Germen eBike with with a german Bosch motor in USA? Ja Wohl! Absolutely. Can I buy a german eBike with a Japanese motor in the USA? Nööööö.

I am suspicious of projects that fail and are resurrected. This industry is so new, that failure seems to be a recurring pattern. I do not want to throw good money after bad. I think it takes a significant commitment to bring new motor tech to market to support my investment over the lifetime of my bike.

I have a problem with German products, as an American consumer, due to lower transparency. German products in widespread European use are not seriously adapted or marketed to USA culture. German eBikes seem outrageously over-priced in the USA. Ever compare price for same German eBike sold in USA and Germany? Makes me wonder how Germans actually perceive american consumers. Do not ask, because I lived there for a year. You will dislike the answer.
 
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I am in Australia so the roads, the culture, an marketing etc is not really affecting my decision in choosing an ebike but perhaps it's good that you pointed this out. Interesting.
BTW Nööööö On a Mac(anyway) you hold down the "option "key and press "u" , release, then you choose the letter you want.

Repairs and services can be done at a bike mechanic with the guidance of the manufacturer. Of course. It's not rocket science.

So not much said about the Bultaco? Might have to wait for a review but by then the chance to own one might have been lost.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
I am in Australia so the roads, the culture, an marketing etc is not really affecting my decision in choosing an ebike but perhaps it's good that you pointed this out. Interesting.
BTW Nööööö On a Mac(anyway) you hold down the "option "key and press "u" , release, then you choose the letter you want.

Repairs and services can be done at a bike mechanic with the guidance of the manufacturer. Of course. It's not rocket science.

So not much said about the Bultaco? Might have to wait for a review but by then the chance to own one might have been lost.
thanks for the umlaut tip. I am a Mac user.

I think the industry will hit an inflection point this year. The battery is key to design. Apple and Tesla have made big commitments eCars/batteries. Sondors is turning the Euro model on its head. The silly underpowered 250-350w, over-priced, German approach has been obsoleted.

The big sleeper is Ford! The 2000W Grace One.15 may bring more efficient and powerful 750 to 1kW motors to the market. So many new entrants into the market in just this year alone.

My predisposition is to wait until I find a bike that I am completely happy with. Your options will be very different 6 to 12 months from now. By a 48V system to future proof your investment.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
hat about the mid drive vs the hub motor preference, the throttle or lack of on the Spitzing etc?
I feel a throttle is essential. Sometimes you may not want to or physically cannot pedal. In my case, I need a "run assist" mode. My hill is an 18% grade. I run 2 miles to the store and carry 30+ pounds of groceries in a fanny pack. My only use is for food runs. I can only see making it up that hill by running with the bike, like a dog on a leach.

I can go with either Motor. I can make the case for both motors. More important than location is motor design and efficiency. I believe you need to consider each bike independently.

I like Ford's idea of folding bikes combined with a car to deal with hills and longer shopping trips. Ironically, a folding conventional bike (no motor) may be the best solution!
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
Sondors is underpowered, has low range, is heavy and sluggish. The only thing you're right about is that it is cheap.

Compared to what you call 'euro model' - with at least double range, lighter bikes and responsive pedaling systems.

Mike you don't yet own an ebike and you have no long term ebiking experience yet you are making these absolute statements here.

Thousands of users (even the fat guys) are riding pedelec bikes and are doing just fine with 250-350w motors. It's not much of what the number says but how efficiently you utilize the power. Dude, I'm 240 lbs and I've been riding 250w (wink wink) motor all year and it is doing fine.

I see your disdain for the Germans ;-) but I see they are kicking butt with building smarter bikes. Sort of like the same old stereotype with cars. Euros build smarter cars while detroit adds horsepower and weight to theirs.

Yamaha is a good competition to Bosh. There is a need for several competitors to push the prices down and encourage competitive improvement in systems.

I had a warranty issue that was nicely dealt with by the Specialized dealer.

The only point that I give you is that you want to go faster than 20mph but again I feel based on your fixation on numbers and not the overall engineering of the system that goes hand in hand. Most people are fine with going 20mph. Again we are talking about a bicycle so basically (unless you are a lycra performer) people with an ebike go faster and save their energy doing so.

IMHO what should improve is not the speed of the bike but the range gained from a battery so that you can go all day and not worry about recharging.

I do think ebike prices could be about 30% lower to be overall competitive but we also need to understand that there are many regular bikes out there that cost more than a quality ebike:

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en/us/stigmata


thanks for the umlaut tip. I am a Mac user.

I think the industry will hit an inflection point this year. The battery is key to design. Apple and Tesla have made big commitments eCars/batteries. Sondors is turning the Euro model on its head. The silly underpowered 250-350w, over-priced, German approach has been obsoleted.

The big sleeper is Ford! The 2000W Grace One.15 may bring more efficient and powerful 750 to 1kW motors to the market. So many new entrants into the market in just this year alone.

My predisposition is to wait until I find a bike that I am completely happy with. Your options will be very different 6 to 12 months from now. By a 48V system to future proof your investment.
 
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Mike leroy

Active Member
Sondors is underpowered, has low range, is heavy and sluggish. The only thing you're right about is that it is cheap.

Compared to what you call 'euro model' - with at least double range, lighter bikes and responsive pedaling systems.

Mike you don't yet own an ebike and you have no long term ebiking experience yet you are making these absolute statements here.

Thousands of users (even the fat guys) are riding pedelec bikes and are doing just fine with 250-350w motors. It's not much of what the number says but how efficiently you utilize the power. Dude, I'm 240 lbs and I've been riding 250w (wink wink) motor all year and it is doing fine.

I had a warranty issue that was nicely dealt with by the Specialized dealer.

The only point that I give you is that you want to go faster than 20mph but again I feel based on your fixation on numbers and not the overall engineering of the system that goes hand in hand. Most people are fine with going 20mph. Again we are talking about a bicycle so basically (unless you are a lycra performer) people with an ebike go faster and save their energy doing so.

IMHO what should improve is not the speed of the bike but the range gained from a battery so that you can go all day and not worry about recharging.
fair enough. I take your points as valid.

All I can say is that I outrun bicyclists on steep hills 7.5% and higher grades, up to 16% grades. I pass them around 9mph. I challenge some bicyclists and they refuse to race me. I do not own any type of Bicycle. I do know how much energy in watts it takes to run up the hills. So, I have a decent approximation of how a motor may perform in my particular case. I have also written the software to calculate all this.

I have two options: outrun traffic on a 10% grade at 35mph. Or take an 18% grade on a quiet road. Two different motors. Both are poor choices. I have been forced to study the problem at the engineering level.
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
I could appreciate your approach to some degree. It's fun to see your angle. Why do you feel the need to outrun traffic? :)
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
I could appreciate your approach to some degree. It's fun to see your angle. Why do you feel the need to outrun traffic? :)
Because car-is-king. Less than 10% of the cars stop to let me cross in the prominently painted crosswalk . I almost got run over in the crosswalk last Sunday at 7am. Some fool in a damn hurry did a rolling stop. Never bothered to look uphill. Just gassed it. I always stare drivers in the eye. Lucky, or else I would not be writing this.
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
probably not. I did see your post in the morning ( a few hours ago) about the Ford initiative. From the video I could sense the ride quality of those bikes with small wheels is somewhat 'lacking'. Granted, I live in the boonies and not in a metropolis like LA or New York. I think the Ford initiative in the video is aimed at Euro market. Ford has a huge footprint in Europe and is a relatively respected brand. I don't see it being relevant to the US market at all. Maybe New York City, maybe Chicago (making it from the burbs to a park and ride and than taking the rinky dinky folder to town) but not majority of smaller cities or rural towns.

I think
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
probably not. I did see your post in the morning ( a few hours ago) about the Ford initiative. From the video I could sense the ride quality of those bikes with small wheels is somewhat 'lacking'. Granted, I live in the boonies and not in a metropolis like LA or New York. I think the Ford initiative in the video is aimed at Euro market. Ford has a huge footprint in Europe and is a relatively respected brand. I don't see it being relevant to the US market at all. Maybe New York City, maybe Chicago (making it from the burbs to a park and ride and than taking the rinky dinky folder to town) but not majority of smaller cities or rural towns.

I think
Court says they ride like a regular bike The external bottom bracket is a key diff. to compensate for the smaller frame. Think millions of ebikes below $1000.
 
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Brambor

Well-Known Member
meh. I have a folder and it does not ride like a regular bike. There is a difference in the ride quality vs a larger wheel circumference. Just watch the ford video how their handlebars twitch when they ride the bikes...
 
It's a little off topic but my current e-ride pulls me up the steepest of hills at 60km/hr without pedaling. An electric motors power is instant so you reach top speed right away unlike a petrol motor. The Bultaco specs say that it is more powerful than mine.

Batterys... Yes it would be nice if the technology was light years ahead. Of course. But it is what it is for the moment.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
meh. I have a folder and it does not ride like a regular bike. There is a difference in the ride quality vs a larger wheel circumference. Just watch the ford video how their handlebars twitch when they ride the bikes...
OK. Can handlebars be made wider or dampened? What type of BB do I have, external?
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
umm. I think you should test ride what you are interested in and not believe what I say :) it is all subjective to personal experience. Case in point I don't believe in suspension in bicycles. lol. I'd say that is not a mainstream opinion. If people took my advice there would be many unhappy riders with long faces. :)