Buying online

Marci jo

Well-Known Member
Elle,
You mentioned you were interested in Aventon but didn’t like “speed at take-off and the lurching.”
Please read this recent release by Aventon regarding changes to the controller:


Looks like those very concerns are addressed so now their bikes have throttle from zero and are less “surgery”.
Also there is a kit available to convert existing Aventon ebikes to the new controller.

Looking forward to a photo of whatever ebike you choose.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Good to know... thanks! Having cadence sensors then, do you ever miss the torque-y feel of a torque sensor? Do you feel enough resistance when you pedal to feel like you, not the motor, are actually propelling the bike?
Elle, that's the trick, and quite a few cadence only bikes will not give you much choice at lower speeds. You can go slow, but you may be "ghost" pedaling, with very little resistance. A common complaint you hear on the most inexpensive bikes is "jerky" as the power engages, or "too fast".

Over 10 mph, those complaints taper off, and the bike feels much better.

The issue is in the software the bike's controller uses. The e-bike industry is still pretty young, and there are still issue being sorted out. That's one of them....

There ARE cadence only systems that work pretty good, but you can't assume with blanket statements one way or the other. You need to ride the bike, or study customer feed back carefully to see where the bike manf is at....
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Once you have a throttle, you always have a throttle. Just about the handiest device there is for getting the bike moving from a stop - especially when pointed up hill or getting the bike moving after stopping in the wrong gear.

Telling you to avoid a throttle was bad advice.
Ditto. However, if in a situation where getting the bike rolling at least a little is not possible, you really want to be in a mid to low gear. I use my throttle often to get going but I step on the left pedal when mounting and push off with my right foot. Then a tad of throttle as I swing my leg over the bike. But I never do this in high gear.

Edit: Conversely if you do this in granny gear and slip up on the throttle ( easy to do as they are twitchy ) you could find yourself sitting on your keister on the ground.
 
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steve mercier

Well-Known Member
IMHO, riding with throttle only is a lot more intuitive and precise than a cadence PAS. I use it all the time, PAS to 0, to get the exact resistance I want in relation to the terrain. I never tried a torque sensor.
That makes sense to me that it would actually be safer if you could override the cadence sensor completely and just use the throttle . My vote will always go to mid-drive though unless you have some handicap that prevents you from pedaling. To me a cadence sensor is a crude system that simply switches on or off as it passes each sensor. The more sensors the better of course but I am not a fan of that system as I have one of those bikes rusting in the backyard after a short 6,000 km life , while my two mid drives have over 29,000 km on them and are still going strong.
 
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fauconnier

Member
Region
Canada
When I ride with my wife it's also a lot more precise to use the throttle to keep a constant resistance and synchronize with my wife bike.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Since you have ridden the Pace and like it, and if they have solved the controller issues, that looks like a nice choice. They kept the weight down to a reasonable level while still providing a good battery capacity and a strong motor. Ask at your LBS what they think and if they would do work on it for you as needed. Also consider watching some youtube videos, like from Park Tool. Other than the electronics bicycles are simple mechanical devices and within the ability of just about anyone who has the desire to learn.

I have a couple mid drive bikes, a Yamaha powered one and one that I did a DIY Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive installation. Recently I bought a very cheap but good quality geared rear hub kit with similar power specs as the Aventon and put it on an old mountain bike. The torque sensing mid drives are more refined but I wouldn't describe the cadence sensor geared hub motor as crude. It doesn't jerk on takeoff, low settings provides decent assist while the higher settings provide incrementally more assist. In the highest setting it provides about as much assist as the Yamaha and Tongsheng mid drives do. The display has a power reading and power isn't static within each setting. For example in the lowest of the 5 settings the assist power starts very low, like in the 20w range, or less, and goes up to 70 or 80w (if I recall correctly, I don't look at the display that much). I don't feel like I am "ghost pedaling". The highest setting peaks in the 800w range. I do find that I have to work the control button on the geared hub motor more than I do on the torque sensing mid drives but that isn't a big issue. The Yamaha doesn't have a throttle, the Tongsheng came with one but I didn't install it, I did install the throttle on the geared hub motor kit but have never had a need to use it.

One thing to consider is that flat tires do happen and often under the most inconvenient circumstances. Rear wheel removal, flat repair and installation is easy for a mid drive bike that has QR or thru axles. Not easy for a heavy geared hub motor secured in the dropouts by nuts and with attached wires to deal with.

Picture below was a front flat but I've had a rear flat on the same bike, it was a simple repair - as far as flats go. I dread getting a flat on the bike with the rear geared hub motor.
DSCF0743.JPG
 

legsofbeer

Active Member
Do you feel enough resistance when you pedal to feel like you, not the motor, are actually propelling the bike?
Yes, one does. And normal usage (on a 7 speed) is to start from a stop in something like gear 2, and upshift as you pick up speed until you're cruising at steady speed in gear 5 or 6. Wanna catch that green light, you pedal faster instead of reaching for the throttle.
 

PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
I love my La Free!

But, have also been looking for months at an Espin Flow as a possibility for our second home. I'm just so spoiled by the ease and natural feel of my mid-drive that I'm afraid the Flow will never be as much fun for me to ride.
Thanks, everyone. I took your advice and talked to a shop near my home, and they were wonderful. They commonly service bikes sold from a variety of online sources. Interestingly, they cautioned me about buying a bike with a hub drive and throttle (I think they said they see more accidents caused by throttle mishaps than anything else) and encouraged me to look at mid-drives. And although they didn't push me toward it all, I did test-ride a Momentum LaFree while I was there and really liked it. Still love the fun and excitement of a Class 2, though!
 

wabaseballfamily

Active Member
Region
USA
I love my La Free!

But, have also been looking for months at an Espin Flow as a possibility for our second home. I'm just so spoiled by the ease and natural feel of my mid-drive that I'm afraid the Flow will never be as much fun for me to ride.
The Flow has been upgraded for 2021. You might want to look into it. We bought a 21 Flow for the wife and got $150 off using a code which I can share with you if you decide to purchase. Hopefully we receive the bike soon as it is stuck in customs.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I love my La Free!

But, have also been looking for months at an Espin Flow as a possibility for our second home. I'm just so spoiled by the ease and natural feel of my mid-drive that I'm afraid the Flow will never be as much fun for me to ride.
We just got a Flow a couple of weeks ago. It has a really light feel to it, and plenty of pep. It's actually much peppier than I thought it would be, especially with my 300 pound butt on it! Anyway, we were way less than fascinated with the controller. Poor low speed control is being kind, so all that was replaced by aftermarket KT stuff both the wife and I have used previously. Works REALLY well now, but it was a lot of work.

Anyway, that experience in back of us, NOW they bring out a revised controller, which is supposed to address the issues the wife and I had specifically.

Point is, the bike is now much more expensive than what we paid for ours, but with the new controller, it just may be worth looking into. I love everything else about it. -Al
 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
Good to know... thanks! Having cadence sensors then, do you ever miss the torque-y feel of a torque sensor? Do you feel enough resistance when you pedal to feel like you, not the motor, are actually propelling the bike?
It depends on the cadence sensor PAS system used by the bike. I have a new Ride1up 700 with has a hub motor and a cadence sensor. It comes with a controller and display that allows you to set your own power levels. I set my PAS 1 to 5% today (power meter reads 31 watts), which provides minimal assistance, and I was certainly feeling plenty of resistance and providing most of the power to propel the bike. When I had the wind behind me, I even rode in PAS 0 for a while. I only bumped it up above 1 on some hills, to about 125 watts on some smaller to mid-size hills and 400 watts on a steep hill, in addition to downshifting a few gears. I've been riding a standard bike for years, and the 700's PAS at these low power level feels pretty natural except at the moment when the power first engages or changes when stepping up to another PAS level. The Ride1Up assist is not only configurable for each PAS level, but it uses a current/power based assist that maintains a continuous power level and does not try to maintain speed like a cruise control by increasing and decreasing power like some other bikes, and dropping the power output to the motor when you exceed a specific speed determined by the assist level. With my 700, the same power continues to be applied to the motor if you pedal harder to ride faster. (Note - some older Ride1Up bikes including the 700 used to have the speed based assist earlier in 2020, but they moved to a current based assist by mid-year, which is much better).

The throttle is definitely not precise, though. Basically, it functions as a 700 to 800 watt booster button, and trying to ease it on slowly at reduced power just doesn't work well.
 
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Elle

New Member
Region
USA
I drove to another town today and tried the Surface 604 Rook, which I liked although I did notice a little 'pulsing' as I suppose the motor worked through the various levels [you can see how mechanical I am, LOL]. It felt much safer/tamer than the Pace 500 (which I still think is the most fun ride of any I tested... but it just doesn't feel safe. I'm aware of the controller update, but I still haven't heard whether the update really makes low speeds possible in PAS 1, my major concern. I'm 68, as hard as it is for me to believe, and falling would really suck). So after riding the Rook, I came back home and rode the LaFree again, as well as the Liv Amiti. And though they're not necessarily as fun, I realized I probably prefer the torque sensor. One thing I noticed, though, is that I had to be in 6th or 7th gear to feel the resistance I'm looking for. The Liv actually was a slightly zippier ride, but I didn't like the handlebars or higher price tag.
 

steve mercier

Well-Known Member
I drove to another town today and tried the Surface 604 Rook, which I liked although I did notice a little 'pulsing' as I suppose the motor worked through the various levels [you can see how mechanical I am, LOL]. It felt much safer/tamer than the Pace 500 (which I still think is the most fun ride of any I tested... but it just doesn't feel safe. I'm aware of the controller update, but I still haven't heard whether the update really makes low speeds possible in PAS 1, my major concern. I'm 68, as hard as it is for me to believe, and falling would really suck). So after riding the Rook, I came back home and rode the LaFree again, as well as the Liv Amiti. And though they're not necessarily as fun, I realized I probably prefer the torque sensor. One thing I noticed, though, is that I had to be in 6th or 7th gear to feel the resistance I'm looking for. The Liv actually was a slightly zippier ride, but I didn't like the handlebars or higher price tag.
My sister in law has the Live Amiti and she likes it plenty. I know the handlebars are mtb type and give the rider a more aggressive riding position. You can easily change the riding position with a $10 stem riser on Amazon ( 31.8 mm ) and or/ a $25 set of handlebars like these Upanbike moustache bars .
1615265274665.png
 

Marci jo

Well-Known Member
Wow all this talk about cadence sensing, torque sensing, PAS levels, gears, watts, etc....can be very confusing.

So Elle, take some test rides and pick the one you like. 🚴🏾‍♂️ 🚴🏼 🚴🏾‍♂️
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Wow all this talk about cadence sensing, torque sensing, PAS levels, gears, watts, etc....can be very confusing.

So Elle, take some test rides and pick the one you like. 🚴🏾‍♂️ 🚴🏼 🚴🏾‍♂️
Noteworthy likely, is the fact most of us totally suck when it comes to learning, really learning, how to ride an e-bike early on. Getting there and back is easy for sure. That can be done right away.

It's going to take a little bit more to learn how to do that at a pace you enjoy, putting as much effort as you do or don't want to into it, counteracting for any different conditions you encounter on your ride (wind, hills, grass vs. dirt, vs. pavement), and do that efficiently, to maximize the distance you can get on a single charge! It started as a game with me at first. Now, I don't give it a second thought. You may suck at first, but eventually, you get pretty darn good at it. There IS a lot to it! -Al
 

PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
I drove to another town today and tried the Surface 604 Rook, which I liked although I did notice a little 'pulsing' as I suppose the motor worked through the various levels [you can see how mechanical I am, LOL]. It felt much safer/tamer than the Pace 500 (which I still think is the most fun ride of any I tested... but it just doesn't feel safe. I'm aware of the controller update, but I still haven't heard whether the update really makes low speeds possible in PAS 1, my major concern. I'm 68, as hard as it is for me to believe, and falling would really suck). So after riding the Rook, I came back home and rode the LaFree again, as well as the Liv Amiti. And though they're not necessarily as fun, I realized I probably prefer the torque sensor. One thing I noticed, though, is that I had to be in 6th or 7th gear to feel the resistance I'm looking for. The Liv actually was a slightly zippier ride, but I didn't like the handlebars or higher price tag.
I usually leave my La Free in auto mode and just use the gears. Feels to me like I'm getting plenty of work. But, I bought it because my knees are not what they used to be, and I was looking for something that would let me ride with LESS resistance, while still giving the joint range of motion work (and gentle resistance).

It was really hard to learn not to "mash" the pedals, and let the motor do the work 🤣🤣🤣!
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I saw a guy turn on his bike indoors to check the display before going for a ride. He grabbed the handle to escort it out and it flew into a glass door. That was a 1/2 twist throttle. I would not invite one into a local bike shop for this reason and others. Toque sensor bikes have the 'throttle' in the pedals. You use your foot to push down much like you do with a car. These can also be class 3, unlike throttle bikes which are delimited to class 2 status. One guy wanted to put a zip tie on his throttle for 'cruise control.' I told him that only Jeff Foxworthy can do that while filming a comedy special on the Darwin Awards. I have two friends that are disabled, they use thumb throttles.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I'm a complete twist grip fan on a motorcycle. They have clutches....

On anything else though (snowmobiles, quads, ATV's, etc), I've learned my lesson the usual (hard) way with an unplanned trip out into the forest. If you loose your balance while accelerating hard or maybe climbing a hill (or maybe both), at some point you're going to discover you are not going to be able to release that twist grip to get whatever you are on shut down - not without releasing that handlebar you are hanging on to for dear life. Thumb throttles don't have that issue....
 
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BET

Active Member
Good to know... thanks! Having cadence sensors then, do you ever miss the torque-y feel of a torque sensor? Do you feel enough resistance when you pedal to feel like you, not the motor, are actually propelling the bike?
Good to know... thanks! Having cadence sensors then, do you ever miss the torque-y feel of a torque sensor? Do you feel enough resistance when you pedal to feel like you, not the motor, are actually propelling the bike?
I feel I have a lot of control on the level of assist on the Espin Sport and Ride1up 500 with the many levels of PAS plus shifting. I find it fairly smooth. I really like having a throttle to take off from a stop especially at intersections.