concerns with ebikes laws and ways to improve them

Dewey

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Please stop trying to belittle me as biased…Just because you want to drive a motor vehicle…
Please take a moment to reflect on how your opinions might be perceived as threatening the personal safety of “riders” (not drivers as you put it) on this ebike forum. In every US state that has adopted the People for Bikes model 3-class ebike legislation Ebikes are not legally defined as motor vehicles, and Class 1-3 ebikes may be legally ridden on bicycle trails, multi-use paths, and sidewalks except where a city, county, or other trail authority, determines otherwise. These laws allow for riders to use our discretion when it concerns personal safety from car and truck drivers.
 
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tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
what I witness is that regular bicycles are being replaced instead.
Of 50 locals I know on eBikes exactly NONE that were able to pedal an acoustic bike replaced it with an eBike. In 7 years and I dare says thousands of support calls, emails, and sales a VAST majority were able to actually pedal again by adding an assistive motor. I'm thinking you've isolated yourself and have a completely skewed view of the reality around you.

I'm hoping your boat is entirely recycled wood and no fiberglass or resins that polluted your perfect world.
PLONK
 

Dorkyman

Active Member
Region
USA
I'd be perfectly happy with a 15 mph speed limit for e-bikes. Problem is, there are a lot of testosterone-poisoned youths who are not old enough to drive a car yet want to go fast but lack common sense due to their tender age. It's currently legal for them to blast around town at class 3 speeds on Ebikes. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

By the way, a good way to think about horsepower is not to compare to a horse because it has little relevance, but instead to realize one HP=550 lbs lifted one foot off the ground in one second, and is equivalent to about 750 watts. My 48v/18a motor + controller can put out about 1 hp, so it can lift itself and the rider about 2 ft per second vertical up an incline at full throttle. On the flats it takes my bike about 400w to go 20 mph continuously, about 1/2hp.
 
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Ken M

Well-Known Member
I'd be perfectly happy with a 15 mph speed limit for e-bikes. Problem is, there are a lot of testosterone-poisoned youths who are not old enough to drive a car yet want to go fast but lack common sense due to their tender age. It's currently legal for them to blast around town at class 3 speeds on Ebikes. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

By the way, a good way to think about horsepower is not to compare to a horse because it has little relevance, but instead to realize one HP=550 lbs lifted one foot off the ground in one second, and is equivalent to about 750 watts. My 48v/18a motor + controller can put out about 1 hp, so it can lift itself and the rider about 2 ft per second vertical up an incline at full throttle. On the flats it takes my bike about 400w to go 20 mph continuously, about 1/2hp.
If ebikes are to achieve their full potential for urban mobility 15mph is too slow (oil and car industry just loves to here that position because it keeps ebikes in the recreation and leisure use realm).

It's interesting that you mention being perfectly happy with a 15mph speed/assist limit for ebikes but then mention knowing that it takes about 400W to sustain 20mph on your ebike so clearly you are riding faster...& I assume you feel that is still a safe speed.
 

Rome

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Here on the 50th State we go by Federal Regulations 750w or less the only requirement is your ebikes must be registered with the county you live in to legally ride where regular bicycles ride.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Here on the 50th State we go by Federal Regulations 750w or less the only requirement is your ebikes must be registered with the county you live in to legally ride where regular bicycles ride.
So very few seem to understand that the federal regulation on wattage is a MOTOR RATING, not a limit. A power limit is established by the constraints of 20mph on a level surface - essentially the power is limited above 20mph to what would sustain the ebike at 20mph, on a level surface with a 170lb rider. Keep in mind this was written by a PhD electrical engineer that wanted ebikes to be appropriate for urban mobility but the NHTSA was dictating that motor power alone could not provide a speed faster than 20mph. A motor rating method makes great sense to enable utility ebikes to have more power below 20mph while making it impractical for single passenger ebikes to need higher power because it requires from 300-400W to sustain 20mph on a level surface (the spec allows higher peak power to say sustain a single passenger ebike at 20mph going up a hill so average speeds can be beneficial for mobility. Almost everyone interprets this is an assist cut-off at 20mph but it is not. This is why the CPSA clarified that ebikes can provide assist beyond 20mph so long as the additional speed is due to contribution of rider effort (I'm not fan of the class system but class 3 ebikes assist to 28mph which was promoted by People for Bikes only to harmonize with speed pedelecs in Europe).

I encourage everyone that is interested in the best future for ebikes to read the HR727 as it defines a "low speed electric bicycle" that is to be considered same as a bike by state use laws (states have the right to establish the use laws for bikes like age, where, when requirements but not the what is a legal ebike is, but they can establish a product that is different than a LSEB which is what the CPSC views the state 3-class ebikes - this still leaves an LSEB as a bike). This was a threat to the oil and auto industry so they funded a lobby effort by People for Bikes to adopt the class system to keep ebike performance to be primarily desirable for leisure and recreational riding. These powerful industries know that an ebike with the ability to average speeds in the 25 to 30mph range are a threat to get more people out of cars on some transportation needs which obviously takes money from them. Ebikes are the most efficient way that humans have ever devised to allow a person to get from point A to point B (even more than walking, riding an non ebike, or even a fully loaded passenger train) so it's important they be provided rational legislation like HR727 to reach their full potential.
 
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Rome

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
You lost me there with all that baloney.
As far as I'm concerned my ebikes are legal where I live.
I ride it wherever and enjoy every minute of it.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
You lost me there with all that baloney.
As far as I'm concerned my ebikes are legal where I live.
I ride it wherever and enjoy every minute of it.
Please read HR727 as it defines what is legal for sale as a "low speed electric bicycle" in all 50 states. How you would consider referring to federal legislation that passed one vote short of full congressional consensus (ie keep in mind these are state representatives voting on federal legislation) as baloney is very strange and avoids a real constructive conversation on this subject.

I was legally riding a Polaris and Izip ebikes in Colorado (both were 100% compliant to the HR727). Then after Colorado became the 2nd state after California to adopt the 3-class legislation (to get Haibike to move their US sales headquarters here) both bikes became theoretically illegal to ride on any public infrastructure in Colorado. I called one of the state representatives that sponsored the bill and even People for Bikes that pushed the legislation and neither had a clue about the possibility this was a result of the legislation (of coarse they denied my information as accurate but the bikes have both been reviewed on EBR and the information can easily be verify as true and accurate). There was no consideration for the 12+ years where Colorado considered the compliant LSEBs defined by HR727 the same as bikes for use.

I was and still do ride these ebikes where ever and enjoy it but the fact is that I could be found liable of riding an illegal vehicle if ticketed or have an accident that injures a pedestrian. Ignorance of the laws would not be a defense for anyone which is why I try to share this information....it's a legitimate issue with ebike regulations in EVERY state that has adopted the 3-class legislation.
 
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m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
So very few seem to understand that <SNIP>
You are misunderstanding disagreement for a failure to understand. Fact is, people are pretty smart here insofar as discussion participants are concerned (although we concurrently prove our stupidity by trying to talk to the brick wall that never listens).

Years into this, the relevant legislation and regulations have been read and understood. The arguments you push have also been read, digested, understood... and rejected.

After all this time and all of these thousands of pointless words, you know this.
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
You are misunderstanding disagreement for a failure to understand. Fact is, people are pretty smart here insofar as discussion participants are concerned (although we concurrently prove our stupidity by trying to talk to the brick wall that never listens).

Years into this, the relevant legislation and regulations have been read and understood. The arguments you push have also been read, digested, understood... and rejected.

After all this time and all of these thousands of pointless words, you know this.

agreed. this is a classic approach of someone who fails to sway a significant majority with their arguments - they resort to claiming or assuming that nobody understands them.

we do understand. we may or may not agree in part of full, but we definitely understand.