Converting old Raleigh 3 speed

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
Very nice! Are all the bottom brackets the same diameter on the Raleighs and do they fit without any inner sleeves?
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I just wanna say you all are all very helpful to me and I thank you all for your knowledge and interest in sharing it!
Our pleasure. These are some of the top experts and with peer review we learn together in a self-correcting way while helping you. I benefit not only because it is fun and entertaining to engage but I also get to see people's perceptions and preconceived notions and motivations. I can encounter many real-world problems on EBR so that when I run across them in person I am not caught flatfooted.

English standard bottom bracket shells of frames are about 33.5mm inside of the threads. Steel frames like yours are almost always clean inside the shell. The BB shaft of a TSDZ2 is 33.0mm. I use a type of very thin shim to wrap the BB insert portion of the TSDZ2 to make up for the +-0.5mm difference. Each bike is slightly different, so the shims must be made to fit each bike. As a side note, aluminum shells may have slag or burs in them and will often need to be milled out. If shimming is not used, and most do not, small wobbles and creaks will develop and can escalate into fatigue fractures and failures. This type of preventable failure is only due to lack of care during installation. Bonus Hint: 'Phaedrus' in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance used aluminum shims. I use something else because I am weird.

'American' bottom bracket frames will not fit this motor because they are far too large at 2" or 50.8mm. The clearance between the BB shaft and the motor will not allow for it. It is too tight.

I am building one from the frame up right now with some cool components and an adult trike in-box is coming in, in ten minutes.

Remember to route the shift cable over the BB shell and not between the frame and the motor. A new contiguous shift cable housing may be in order.
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
Thank you and you guys are the best!
That is very essential information that is of the invaluable kind that no one talks about or considers it appears. I can see it causing issues and I am surprised the diameter of the BB is not addressed like the width is by the manufacturers. It is not a critical measurement for fit but is for performance and durability but once it is sold they don't worry about those things.
Do you know where a thin shim that you recommend and used on your build can be purchased?
Can you please explain what you mean by a new contiguous cable housing.
 
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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
They have videos of assembly taking several minutes! I like the Zen approach, taking more time and mindful effort to get to less.

To answer your question, you would be surprised. Here is the quote I referenced in italics regarding shims on a BMW handlebar in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.' It also illustrates contrasting approaches. This idea and approach to problem solving applies to the bottom bracket of your Raleigh conversion. The approach is more important than what you use to get there.
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
I love that story! Very kool! Too bad he was stuck in that kind of thinking.
Thanks for the link for the free book, "... Motorcycle Maintenance..."
Now I need to find a premium quality aluminum beer can. I'm thinking Sapporo is pretty kool!
 

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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Nice. Use what you have on hand and improvise. I do unconventional workarounds all the time. Isn't it funny that the guy with the BMW would rather have a loose handlebar than have a beer can shim to fix it? He was repulsed by a creative solution. Many people in bike shops are like that. You are going to have to drink that Sapporo before working on your bike.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Beer can shim sounds good if you need it but for the 5 bikes that I've installed a TSDZ2 no shim was needed or would have even fit. They were all very tight and on two I had to take off barely perceptible burrs in the bottom bracket for the motor to even be able to slip in at all (used a rotary file on a drill). All 5 of the bikes that I tried my two TSDZ2 motors on were aluminum.
Removing the crank assembly seems to be the biggest stumbling block for some people. Yours should be very straight forward because it has the wedge pin/bolts holding the crank arms on so no special tool needed. If you don't need your bike for day to day use you can remove the crank assembly before ordering the motor to make sure you can get it done. I did this on my old Sears 10 speed when I was like 13 years old to lube the axle bearings, it isn't hard to do.
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
Beer can shim sounds good if you need it but for the 5 bikes that I've installed a TSDZ2 no shim was needed or would have even fit. They were all very tight and on two I had to take off barely perceptible burrs in the bottom bracket for the motor to even be able to slip in at all (used a rotary file on a drill). All 5 of the bikes that I tried my two TSDZ2 motors on were aluminum.
Removing the crank assembly seems to be the biggest stumbling block for some people. Yours should be very straight forward because it has the wedge pin/bolts holding the crank arms on so no special tool needed. If you don't need your bike for day to day use you can remove the crank assembly before ordering the motor to make sure you can get it done. I did this on my old Sears 10 speed when I was like 13 years old to lube the axle bearings, it isn't hard to do.
I have two Raleigh bikes. I tried to remove the pin on one of them and I could not do it.
I undid the bolt, applied a heat gun to expand the crank arm and pounded out the pin to no avail. I only succeeded in messing up the threads about three turns down so I filed it down in order to put back the nut on it. I will try the other bike one of these days.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I have found that overtightening will sheer the pin and the arm falls off. The pin could be cut in the middle and pried apart but that is a pain. There is no room to work on it and it would destroy a plunge saw blade. The pin is hardened so it is not at all ductile, it is brittle as hell so it snaps much like a file or hardened drill bit will. I know of a guy who lost an eye when prying a pant can lid with a hardened file and the tip snapped.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
That's unfortunate. I don't remember exactly how I removed the pins when I was 13 but pretty sure I would have just pounded them out with a hammer. I took the crank assembly off again several years ago when I replaced with a square taper cartridge and cranks (I did a 3 speed coaster brake conversion). I probably just tapped them out again. It usually isn't a great idea to hit the threaded end without leaving the nut on (after loosening it) to avoid mushrooming the threaded end and damaging the threads. You also want to hit it straight on to avoid bending the threaded part of the pin - if you bend it that would make the job infinitely more difficult. And support the opposite side of the crank so all of the force doesn't transmit into the bottom bracket. I don't think a heat gun would do much, would probably have to use a propane torch, MAPP type works best in my experience (I haven't used it in this application though). If you have a very large C clamp or a small vise you could press the pin out instead of hammering - using a regular socket (from a socket wrench) over the non-threaded part of the pin - larger diameter than the pin - so you can press it out. You could always check with a bike shop to see how much they would charge to remove the pin.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
I have found that overtightening will sheer the pin and the arm falls off. The pin could be cut in the middle and pried apart but that is a pain. There is no room to work on it and it would destroy a plunge saw blade. The pin is hardened so it is not at all ductile, it is brittle as hell so it snaps much like a file or hardened drill bit will. I know of a guy who lost an eye when prying a pant can lid with a hardened file and the tip snapped.
in my N=1 experience with a bike like this I found the pin to be mild steel, not hardened like the axle or cranks. That is why it is so easy to damage the pin threads.
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
That's unfortunate. I don't remember exactly how I removed the pins when I was 13 but pretty sure I would have just pounded them out with a hammer. I took the crank assembly off again several years ago when I replaced with a square taper cartridge and cranks (I did a 3 speed coaster brake conversion). I probably just tapped them out again. It usually isn't a great idea to hit the threaded end without leaving the nut on (after loosening it) to avoid mushrooming the threaded end and damaging the threads. You also want to hit it straight on to avoid bending the threaded part of the pin - if you bend it that would make the job infinitely more difficult. And support the opposite side of the crank so all of the force doesn't transmit into the bottom bracket. I don't think a heat gun would do much, would probably have to use a propane torch, MAPP type works best in my experience (I haven't used it in this application though). If you have a very large C clamp or a small vise you could press the pin out instead of hammering - using a regular socket (from a socket wrench) over the non-threaded part of the pin - larger diameter than the pin - so you can press it out. You could always check with a bike shop to see how much they would charge to remove the pin.
I thought about using a propane torch but could not find it in my apartment. Oh yes, I did try it with a large c clamp and it still did not budge.
I will try these techniques you mentioned on the other bike which I like better anyway and the space between top and bottom tubes are roomier for a battery.
I like that you still have your bike since you were 13!
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
I have found that overtightening will sheer the pin and the arm falls off. The pin could be cut in the middle and pried apart but that is a pain. There is no room to work on it and it would destroy a plunge saw blade. The pin is hardened so it is not at all ductile, it is brittle as hell so it snaps much like a file or hardened drill bit will. I know of a guy who lost an eye when prying a pant can lid with a hardened file and the tip snapped.
Bummer on the guy. My mom always warned against BB guns for the lose the eye thing.
 

Antonella

Member
Region
USA
City
New York
I have found that overtightening will sheer the pin and the arm falls off. The pin could be cut in the middle and pried apart but that is a pain. There is no room to work on it and it would destroy a plunge saw blade. The pin is hardened so it is not at all ductile, it is brittle as hell so it snaps much like a file or hardened drill bit will. I know of a guy who lost an eye when prying a pant can lid with a hardened file and the tip snapped.
Are these replacement pins easy to find and purchase?
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Always wear eye protection. As a youth I once got a tiny shard of steel in my cornea when using a chisel and hammer on a rusted exhaust system. Lucky it wasn't worse. Lucky that I didn't put an eye out with my Daisy BB gun either.