Cost-Benefit Comparison: Google SpreadSheet for eBikes

Mike leroy

Active Member
A Google Sheet to associate 50+ major eBike features (i.e., costs) with benefits. Benefits are rated on a scale from 1-5. Associate any bike feature (i.e., costs) with a benefit. The benefits are categories tailored to your situation. The seven benefit categories in this example are based on Bosch research. The features (i.e., costs) are taken directly from bike manufacturer spec sheets.

A formatted text, rather than spreadsheet, applying the same technique is posted in this thread.


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Google Sheet sorted by Cost(above) or Benefit(below)


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The second step is to plot the benefit averaged ratings relative to each other.


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The seven benefit categories, based on Bosch research, are:
  1. Excitement
  2. Enjoyment
  3. Endurance
  4. Economy
  5. Ease
  6. Elegance
  7. Results

The side-by-side comparison is intended to be used with this cost-benefit analysis.

I can modify the template, if you find features are useful to the community in general. I am trying to limit the list to 50 items. Please suggest the existing item that is less useful, so I can replace it.

The template is read-only. Copy and paste it into your Google Sheet to edit it.
 

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Ann M.

Well-Known Member
I uploaded a link to EBR Resources to compare 40+ major eBike features. The idea is to rate relevant features on a scale from 1-5.

I can modify the template, if you find features are useful to the community in general. Simply post a reply to the Resource, rather than this post.
@Mike leroy Looks like this report can't be viewed on this site; did you perhaps borrow copyrighted material?
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
@Mike leroy Looks like this report can't be viewed on this site; did you perhaps borrow copyrighted material?
No, it is an empty Google Docs file that I gave link permission to anyone to read. Try the link again.

I have a Google Gmail ID and am logged in. I am displaying the file from Safari on my iPad. You should be able to view it from any browser. Try Google's Chrome browser, if in doubt.
 
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Mike leroy

Active Member
The automobile industry has a long-standing history of using "Star Plots" to visually diagram differences between cars. The second step is to plot the ratings. We can also include personal information, i.e., our Heart Rate.

The following Star Plot illustrates a typical ride. All bike considerations are rated a "3", on a scale from 1 to 5. We also score our personal information , i.e., Heart Rate, as a "3", or average.

The following Star Plot tries to convey an under-powered bike because the outcome, Heat, has the highest score of "5". The bike was overheated.

If we scored Heat as too cold, "1", for another bike, then that motor is over-powered. The potential power was never utilized, so we overpaid for the bike.


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Now that the concept of star plots has been introduced, we will compare the Felt 3 Mountain and NINEe bikes in a star plot.

To evaluate the bike from a holistic viewpoint, we considered the outside temperature, bike speed, additional weight, steepness, etc.... To make this comparison relevant we will compare:
  1. Economy - eBike rated as 3/5. Mountain bike 5/5.
  2. Elegance - eBike 5/5. Mountain 3/5.
  3. Excitement - both 4/5.
  4. Endurance - eBike 5/5. Mountain 3/5
  5. Enjoyment- eBike 5/5. Mountain 4/5.
  6. Ease - eBike 5/5. Mountain 3/5.

The Star Plot for the NINEe electric bike tradeoff decisions made by Ms. Ease:

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The Star Plot for the Nine 3 mountain bike tradeoff decisions made by Mr. Endurance:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 

opimax

Well-Known Member
Because of your posting style, multiple threads of 1 posts,not accepting any input and dismiss as doesn't work for you, not recognizing you are the only one doing this on the board, the extremes you go to, Your posts, you replete the same information, you repeat the same information ,you do not seem to understand that your "posting style" is very different from others who use this board

When I read your posts I read them as you are Sheldon from the Big Bang theory w/o the humor

You didn't ask me but I hope 86 doesn't mind my response for him or maybe in addition to him

Mark
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
Because of your posting style, multiple threads of 1 posts,not accepting any input and dismiss as doesn't work for you, not recognizing you are the only one doing this on the board, the extremes you go to, Your posts, you replete the same information, you repeat the same information ,you do not seem to understand that your "posting style" is very different from others who use this board

When I read your posts I read them as you are Sheldon from the Big Bang theory w/o the humor

You didn't ask me but I hope 86 doesn't mind my response for him or maybe in addition to him

Mark
Mark,
I have trouble understanding.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to express that I am breaking your posting etiquette?

I have a hard time decifering the your rules. I assume you mean: if I start a thread and receive no replies, that I am supposed to stop trying to express that idea?

The personal issue I cannot satisfactorily resolve is cost versus benefit. My road is a 10% grade. I have access only to two other roads: a 12.5% and 18% grade.

The math is simple and provides a clear-cut answer: NO. the cost for such a special purpose bicycle does not justify the benefit.

I would love to use a bike to transport groceries from the nearest store two miles away. I have tried to answer the cost-benefit question from many different angles. I have never repeated information. I may referenced previous posts to maintain continuity of thought. Or looked at the same problem from different angles.

The plain and simple fact is several hundred cars pass by each day. I rarely see more than five bicycles per month.

The truth is I see more deer on a given day, than bicycles all month. Last week, I split a herd of twelve deer in half. I ran past many cars and dogs, but encountered no bicycles that day.

If I truly understand your point, you are presuming you speak for everyone on this site. You also have an unexpressed set of posting rules that everyone should abide by.

Can you provide a link to a website about posting etiquette that is generally accepted?
 
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D

Deleted member 803

Guest
The comment was not meant to be an attack but an attempt to help. You are obsessed with data and technical jargon and relate your emotional sense of well being to mathematics. Having spent the better part of 30 years in the software/hardware side of tech I observed first hand how so many programmers were so driven by code design and functionality that they were completely at a loss to understand why the consuming public either did not use a particular feature or cared little about the benefit. I suggest you forget about cost benefit and pedal stroke power curves. It appears you cannot (as stated in your last post), justify purchasing an ebike and suggest you move on.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
The comment was not meant to be an attack but an attempt to help. You are obsessed with data and technical jargon and relate your emotional sense of well being to mathematics. Having spent the better part of 30 years in the software/hardware side of tech I observed first hand how so many programmers were so driven by code design and functionality that they were completely at a loss to understand why the consuming public either did not use a particular feature or cared little about the benefit. I suggest you forget about cost benefit and pedal stroke power curves. It appears you cannot (as stated in your last post), justify purchasing an ebike and suggest you move on.
You appear to be an intelligent and articulate person. Did you ever click on the link in the first post to Bosch Marketing material? The whole effort was based on Bosch marketing research.

How about coffee at Pete's ? I am certain I have seen you there before after one of my runs.
 

opimax

Well-Known Member
There are not written rules for everything, wish there were. it is similar to quality, i know when I see it but define it, pretty hard. Your posting style is different from anyone else s' here that I see. Maybe you cant see that since you are the poster. Are you you familiar w/The Big Bang Theory? the rules for roommates come to mind. you can rationalize and be correct all you want but you are not necessarily right, big difference. Almost all posts have in there you want to do the impossible and challenge any thought that doesn't allow you to ride up a hill w/no hands while carrying 2 elephants on your back lol. I mentioned you repeat yourself which you did again in response to my post. I cannot or do not speak for everyone on is site, these are my thoughts, one or both of us may be surprised on how many agree. When I first started on forums years ago i went "overboard " and someone pointed out to me what I was doing . I took a step , my response way thank you. I didn't know that I was not following etiquette and was very quiet til i thought my posts out a head of time , put my shoe on their feet. I realized the boards were not my toys and to be shared w/many.

All I want is to fly to the moon and back ...in 1 day, how high is that bar to reach? Nothing you can do or say will make that happen and I can argue every thought you have that says so. I find your posting similar.

I certainly can put you in my ignore list but I believe some of your responses to others posts to be helpful and I can ignore w/o using the computer if I wanted . I am not that offended , bothered or have dislike for you, just the way you come off could be improved IMHO. I tend to think of what other people think of my thoughts and try to be respectful of a community.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
There are not written rules for everything, wish there were. it is similar to quality, i know when I see it but define it, pretty hard. Your posting style is different from anyone else s' here that I see. Maybe you cant see that since you are the poster. Are you you familiar w/The Big Bang Theory? the rules for roommates come to mind. you can rationalize and be correct all you want but you are not necessarily right, big difference. Almost all posts have in there you want to do the impossible and challenge any thought that doesn't allow you to ride up a hill w/no hands while carrying 2 elephants on your back lol. I mentioned you repeat yourself which you did again in response to my post. I cannot or do not speak for everyone on is site, these are my thoughts, one or both of us may be surprised on how many agree. When I first started on forums years ago i went "overboard " and someone pointed out to me what I was doing . I took a step , my response way thank you. I didn't know that I was not following etiquette and was very quiet til i thought my posts out a head of time , put my shoe on their feet. I realized the boards were not my toys and to be shared w/many.

All I want is to fly to the moon and back ...in 1 day, how high is that bar to reach? Nothing you can do or say will make that happen and I can argue every thought you have that says so. I find your posting similar.

I certainly can put you in my ignore list but I believe some of your responses to others posts to be helpful and I can ignore w/o using the computer if I wanted . I am not that offended , bothered or have dislike for you, just the way you come off could be improved IMHO. I tend to think of what other people think of my thoughts and try to be respectful of a community.
I will try to your advice to heart. Everyone can improve each day. I do not want to offend anyone.

You seem to be searching for the term "futuristic". The USA is five years behind Germany. What you might perceive as futurisitic is being sold in Germany today. I contacted Giant Germany to import giant Full-E. Against Giant company policy.

I would gladly buy the equivalent bike. I have received no response from curry tech about the Haibike SDuro AllMtn Pro (Yamaha) in the USA.

I attended high school for one year in Switzerland. I am still fluent in German. I spend a great deal of time reading german web sites. I just see the USA future through the eyes of Germany today. The issue is a giant cultural divide between Europe and the USA regarding public transportation.

I lived in a tiny village in Switzerland. We rode bikes twelve miles each way to High School six days each week. The most fun was during snow storms! We had a blast! The roads are safe, unlike the car-dominated USA roads. By the same token, I could hop on a train and arrive at some of the best skiing in the world in less than two hours.

The problem is cultural. I run two miles to the store to carry back 10-35 pounds of food. Consequently, I outrun any bicyclist on my hill. The benefits are enormous. I simply do not see the point of driving a big car to buy a small bag of food.

So, my message is not aimed at bicyclists. My message is directed squarely at corporate America. Give me a bike that pushes 50 pounds of groceries up an 18% grade. I have contacted all the USA companies capable of delivering the Bike, today, that I am willing to pay $6000 for. I am an "outlier" from the mainstream. The irony is the same companies pay large salaries to people like me to get these products to market.

I fully expect to buy this Yamaha motorcyle, before I can buy a Yamaha bicycle. What is wrong with that picture?

 
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opimax

Well-Known Member
I have to use Google translate to get to Stromer site, http://www.stromerforum.ch/, Stromer is not a hill climber, not for you. of all the suggestions for your bike was a Bafgang w/small tires (say 20") suggested, smaller tires =more torque or/and custom gearing? Your quandary is why there is a custom build you category... how much time have you spent at ES? Your posts (again repeated about Germany ) :) and their bikes are basically moot , cant be bought here, even worse cant be warrantied. Either accept no warranty or drop what isn't available. I would do the 2nd if it cant be bought then dont even think about it, Keep it simple
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
I have to use Google translate to get to Stromer site, http://www.stromerforum.ch/, Stromer is not a hill climber, not for you. of all the suggestions for your bike was a Bafgang w/small tires (say 20") suggested, smaller tires =more torque or/and custom gearing? Your quandary is why there is a custom build you category... how much time have you spent at ES? Your posts (again repeated about Germany ) :) and their bikes are basically moot , cant be bought here, even worse cant be warrantied. Either accept no warranty or drop what isn't available. I would do the 2nd if it cant be bought then dont even think about it, Keep it simple

Honestly, I have spent a great deal of time on ES. I enjoy the site. I expect to buy the Yamaha PES1 next year, because the PES1 will arrive before a Yamaha bicycle.
 

Reseg

Member
1st off, I understand where the others are coming from. Some of your focus seems impossible to quantify and a waste, especially considering you sometimes miss some of the major factors. Things like with the crank position and varied power has been tested and tried through cyclists training their pedaling efficiency (training the upstroke and top/bottom) as well as the oval crank gear sets that were meant to provide more rotation while on the downstroke. Both of these things have shown to be more hype than anything. Then there's the fact you're adding a fail point to the tech, and the fact that cyclists come up to a stop in the 12/6:00 position where it would be boosting and what that means for efficiency, range and safety. However I'm not one to talk, I'm a data guy that may very well be even worse than you at becoming fixated on wasting my time with theories.

Meh, sorry, just rambling and I know my grammar is horrible lol.

So, to attempt to add value to one of your needs, I'll share some hill testing with my Focus Aventura Impulse S10 the other day. I went up a 14% ave grade, .4mi hill with a hard effort and an easy effort. The section I'm referring to can be found here:
http://app.strava.com/segments/1049627?filter=overall
I'm 205 lbs, probably around 220lbs with what I carried that day, and the bike is around 53lbs.

I removed my results and made my ride private because I actually beat everyone on the leaderboard and took the KOM. Multiple people at the top of that section are professional cyclists that hit it hard with ~15lb bikes and weigh easily <150lbs themselves. I personally know #2 on the list is a pro and is very strong and I believe under 140lbs.

So my results for that section (I have screenshots and the ride saved & private still) were:
High effort: 2 min 4 sec @ 11.3 mph ave speed
Low effort: 2 min 27 sec @ 9.5 mph ave speed (this was an effort I could exert for hours, but I'm in pretty good shape)

Both were with max assist and motor was fine, cranking like it normally does on flat, just in a lower gear and speed. There was NO momentum going into the hill, it was from a stop.

It's not your 18% hill, but there's a data point for you with just a comfort commuter 350W mid-drive ebike.

As I'm sure you know, studies show a bicycle is a very efficient form of transportation, in many cases vs walking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transportation
And many will argue an ebike vs. a regular bike is even better, when you compare the weight of the battery/motor and charging vs. additional food consumed by a human-only powered bike. However, this can quickly change on hills, like you need a bike for. Once you're moving up a hill, the weight of the bike is a much more significant factor in the transportation efficiency. So the ebike needs even more power to make up for its weight, just like at a certain point of incline, walking will be more efficient than riding a human powered bike.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
Any idea how many watts your or your friends legs are able to generate? A pro certainly is above 300 watts. I added this graph as a reference point. 1 meter/sec = 2.2 mph 6m/s = 13.5 mph 4m/s = 9mph

According to the following graph you and your friends are around 425 watts, which 2014 Tour de France champion level.

Do you agree?
On my 18% grade that is about 625 watts, which is Tour de France record level.

My guess your cadence is at least 60 RPM, but actually closer to 90 RPM? Do you agree ?

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Here is a more conceptual graph and general purpose chart related to gears:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 
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Mike leroy

Active Member
Rojo inspires me. He bicycles 150 pounds of food around on a single speed bike.
I gave him my 30 pound fanny pack filled with groceries. I asked him what would be the equivalent on his bicycle. Seventy to one hundred pounds was his response.

He made the entire bicycle frame.

About 30 minutes after talking with Rojo today, I found cougar (mountain lion) tracks in the park I ran through. I carried 30 pounds of groceries back along the same trail. The trail is a 5% grade in the meadows of the canyon. The cougar identification is according to a San Mateo County Park Official.

The second time I found the Silverhill Cougar tracks in two weeks. Last time, I found tracks in the 10% grade, along the creek. She killed a deer in the 18% grade about two months ago.

The Silverhill Cougar is a female who has had two kittens in the park. The park is her home range. The eerie sounds she makes in heat, sound like this caterwauling. The caterwauling sends chills up my spine.

They had to shoot a cougar in the park with a tranquilizer because some idiot, stoned out his mind, tried to pet the cougar. They moved the cougar to a nearby park, but they believe she simply returns.
 

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Reseg

Member
In the link I gave you (Strava) anyone who has a lightening bolt next to their power is using a power meter, the others are pure estimates based off grade, speed and weight that Strava does with their account. The #1 guy was using a power meter and it says 570W. But no doubt he's <150lbs and on a 15lb bike. I was holding around a 90 cadence, which is where I typically would race and train at.

If I were to guess, I'd say I was at least 450W, and probably closer to 500W on the high effort. To compare, here's another hill I did on my 15lb road bike: https://www.strava.com/segments/405437
I'm "Adam Alter" at #12 on there with 510W for 3:51. That was all-out. Even though I held the most power, I'm probably 40lb+ more than the rest above me lol. The weight makes a huge difference on hills. I peak at around 1760W, and hold 860W for 1 min, but it drops off quickly after that. My sustained watts is actually 350 (as tested in a lab with blood tests on a stationary bike) which ironically is the same as my ebike lol.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
In the link I gave you (Strava) anyone who has a lightening bolt next to their power is using a power meter, the others are pure estimates based off grade, speed and weight that Strava does with their account. The #1 guy was using a power meter and it says 570W. But no doubt he's <150lbs and on a 15lb bike. I was holding around a 90 cadence, which is where I typically would race and train at.

If I were to guess, I'd say I was at least 450W, and probably closer to 500W on the high effort. To compare, here's another hill I did on my 15lb road bike: https://www.strava.com/segments/405437
I'm "Adam Alter" at #12 on there with 510W for 3:51. That was all-out. Even though I held the most power, I'm probably 40lb+ more than the rest above me lol. The weight makes a huge difference on hills. I peak at around 1760W, and hold 860W for 1 min, but it drops off quickly after that. My sustained watts is actually 350 (as tested in a lab with blood tests on a stationary bike) which ironically is the same as my ebike lol.
I applaud your accomplishment!

I have no idea what my ability is, because I do not own a bicycle. Generating 625 Watts by pedalling a center-mounted bike, offered by a major company in the USA today, is not possible for me. I run up the hill rather quickly and actually pass other runners. I also pass everyone walking up the hill with 30+ pounds of food strapped to my waist. I am six feet tall. My weight varies between 165 and 185, depending upon how much I run.

As estimated, the hill requires about 90Nm of torque without food.

My estimate to push 50 pounds of groceries up the 18% grade is something closer to 120Nm of torque. Bosch motors are rated around 60Nm of torque. Yamaha is rated about 80Nm.

The best option for the 18% grade with 50 pounds of food in "run-assist" mode. Run-assist is like walk-assist, except running with the bike, as if I am running with a dog on a leach. Run-assist is better than hiking through the park, because the Silverhill Mountain Lion has left tracks twice in the past two weeks. I believe she had kittens, again. She is unusually active, probably feeding her litter.
 
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PowerMe

Well-Known Member
I think the issue, Mike, is that you start multiple threads, in which it appears no one else is interested in the topic but you, and then you commence talking to yourself with post after post after post. That's not against the TOS, as far as I know, but it seems kind of weird and perhaps pointless to be creating new threads when the only replies are you replying to yourself. But hey, that's me, and perhaps I'm in the minority.