Delite Gen 4 Rohloff Speed vs Cadence

E14Delite

Member
To achieve the numbers I cited above. I am pedaling at a cadence of at least 75 in 13 gear in turbo. 12 gear in Sport, 11th gear in tour.
Hi Alaskan,

Have you seen a power curve posted anywhere for the Gen4 Bosch Motors??

PS Are you OK to travel to Sitka this season or do you have travel restrictions. ? We are expecting there may be travel allowed between Australia and New Zealand soon but borders closed to elsewhere.

Stay Safe Stephen
 

E14Delite

Member
The only thing I have seen has a small amount of technical data is this:


I am not sure yet if I will make it back to Alaska this coming summer. I have officially retired at this point.
Interesting that the he Bosch website does not seem to list a hub gear option for the Gen4 HS version but Steve has that version. I will do some more searching for a Gen4 power curve as new motor does have more power than the earlier versions.
Cheers
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
Gen4 HS and monitoring speed through Kiox display (and Bosch connect)
Steve one thing about these motors is that they completely cut support at 28mph. But my experience is like the others , you should be able to keep speeds around 25-26 on flats without winds without much trouble. After 26 it decreases the support for a smooth cutout so keeping 28 is pretty much all you. Previous gen HS motor started cutout way earlier.

I believe kiox has a power meter showing your input. What do you see when you are above 25 mph? That should give us a better idea about what is going on.

You have a power tab on the app, can you post that graph instead of cadence?
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Steve one thing about these motors is that they completely cut support at 28mph. But my experience is like the others , you should be able to keep speeds around 25-26 on flats without winds without much trouble. After 26 it decreases the support for a smooth cutout so keeping 28 is pretty much all you. Previous gen HS motor started cutout way earlier.

I believe kiox has a power meter showing your input. What do you see when you are above 25 mph? That should give us a better idea about what is going on.

You have a power tab on the app, can you post that graph instead of cadence?

25 is hard, 28 near impossible, 20 easy as pie. Power screenshot attached
 

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Johnny

Well-Known Member
25 is hard, 28 near impossible, 20 easy as pie. Power screenshot attached
Makes perfect sense. You see you are hitting almost 800! Can you also post the altitude and speed graphs too? I like to see the grade and speed.

At 28 it is completely you so given the weight and riding position 700 is expected and it is as you said near impossible.

At 25 though when the motor supply 250-350W you should be able to keep that speed with a modest 250w rider input.

I am assuming that you are maxing the motor out, Bosch usually gives you the percentage of the power supplied by the rider too it would be great if you can show that too.
 

dblhelix

Well-Known Member
25 is hard, 28 near impossible, 20 easy as pie. Power screenshot attached
I doubt you are getting any engine assist at 28mph. I can’t speak to the gen4, but the gen2 starts dropping the assist b/t 26-27mph, IIRC. I think the idea is a smooth loss of assist as compared to the CX‘s sharp cut-off just under 20mph. I agree that describing these engines as “28mph” is a gimmick.

i remember when that power curves graphic popped up. The author/creator remains anonymous, I believe, so grain of salt.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Makes perfect sense. You see you are hitting almost 800! Can you also post the altitude and speed graphs too? I like to see the grade and speed.

At 28 it is completely you so given the weight and riding position 700 is expected and it is as you said near impossible.

At 25 though when the motor supply 250-350W you should be able to keep that speed with a modest 250w rider input.

I am assuming that you are maxing the motor out, Bosch usually gives you the percentage of the power supplied by the rider too it would be great if you can show that too.

Hi, speed and cadence are in a prior post. Altitude/grade are not captured. Power ratio attached.

Overall, my concern is anything above 20mph. A motor that can get me to 20mph with ease and barely lends anything further up through 25mph or 28mph, does not seem to be maxed out; it just quits.
 

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Johnny

Well-Known Member
Hi, speed and cadence are in a prior post. Altitude/grade are not captured. Power ratio attached.

Overall, my concern is anything above 20mph. A motor that can get me to 20mph with ease and barely lends anything further up through 25mph or 28mph, does not seem to be maxed out; it just quits.
ok Just checked. Your input around 25mph is too high. Your input should not be 600w+ when you have support unless you are climbing. Don't expect to keep 28 with these motors though because of the cutoff.

Do you still hear/feel the motor engaging at 25mph? Your cadence is fine, these motors will be close to their peak power until late 110's.

While going 24-25mph try turning the support off and see if it is any harder?

Of course the simplest is to try another bosch gen 4 speed bike on the same route to see if it is any better.
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
@SteveBorough What you continue to describe is not normal at all. How close is the dealer from which you bought your bike? I would take the bike in and have them try to get to the bottom of this.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Got it from a store a 5 minute ride away, have an appointment for tomorrow. Could an incorrect tire circumference setting in my Kiox be the culprit?
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
Got it from a store a 5 minute ride away, have an appointment for tomorrow. Could an incorrect tire circumference setting in my Kiox be the culprit?
May be, but speedometer will scale with wheel circumference since you are reading the speed from kiox I think it is unlikely.

But it is great that you are only 5 minutes away, let them take a look and if possible let them give you a bike with the same motor and you see if it feels any different.
 

Marcela

Well-Known Member
Just for comparison, I have the Vado 5.0 with Brose. I've seen another chart that contradicts the comparison chart on pg. 1.

I can do 25-26 mph pretty easy in turbo mode with the Brose on level ground.

The geared hub is going to take some power, possibly along with the tires. Remember running karts, the chains were more efficient than belts, which would be more efficient than gears I would imagine.

All fwiw. And you payed nothing.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
May be, but speedometer will scale with wheel circumference since you are reading the speed from kiox I think it is unlikely.

But it is great that you are only 5 minutes away, let them take a look and if possible let them give you a bike with the same motor and you see if it feels any different.
The bike came with the circumference set about 3 inches less than it should be, could that cause the kiox mph display and motor response to be off? Drastic example, skateboard wheels turning at the same speed as a bike tire, the skateboard travels much less distance (lower mph)
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
The bike came with the circumference set about 3 inches less than it should be, could that cause the kiox mph display and motor response to be off? Drastic example, skateboard wheels turning at the same speed as a bike tire, the skateboard travels much less distance (lower mph)

3" less in circumference will make your kiox read the speed slightly lower than it really is. This actually would increase the real world cutoff speed but again that kind of a difference is too small to explain your experience.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Has anyone noticed that the assist acts differently based on tire circumference setting in Kiox? I'm getting drastic improvement by up-ing circumference setting in Kiox from the stock 86.22 inches to ~88.5 (closer to actual) LBS said this shouldn't matter but I'm getting better assist up to 28mph as a result and everyone's confused. I dont want to throw off the Kiox accuracy for MPH and cheat the system in any way but my user power has dropped significantly (~<500W, down from ~800W)

Lastly, do you know of any "training-wheels limp mode" for R&M bikes that could also explain the change in performance? IE medium assist before your first 50 miles?

86.22"
86.jpg


88.5"
88.jpg
 
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Johnny

Well-Known Member
Has anyone noticed that the assist acts differently based on tire circumference setting in Kiox? I'm getting drastic improvement by up-ing circumference setting in Kiox from the stock 86.22 inches to ~88.5 (closer to actual) LBS said this shouldn't matter but I'm getting better assist up to 28mph as a result and everyone's confused. I dont want to throw off the Kiox accuracy for MPH and cheat the system in any way but my user power has dropped significantly (~<500W, down from ~800W)

Lastly, do you know of any "training-wheels limp mode" for R&M bikes that could also explain the change in performance? IE medium assist before your first 50 miles?

86.22"
View attachment 51320

88.5"
View attachment 51321
Weird but the second graph seems normal and it seems to be assisting properly.

At 88.5 your reported speed is higher but the difference is so small that it shouldn't make this much of a difference. Maybe this is a buggy speed hack prevention feature.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
I returned the bike. The store's approach continued to be "no, it feels right, this is not the right bike for you," rather than paying any attention to the numbers and feel I was reporting. The SuperDelight is the bike for me when its functioning as in pic 2, not pic 1. I needed to know why it performed so drastically different and they weren't able to find an answer. Was even told, "I knew you were going to return it," which is insulting and I'd rather spend my $11K somewhere else that would entertain my madness and attention to detail. Not knocking them, they are allowed to run their business any way they like, just realized the incompatibility in approach that I'm not willing to engage in for the life of the biker/store relationship. Will buy it somewhere else.
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
A shame your dealer experience was so dismissive and unproductive. All the Riese & Muller dealers I have encountered have been great. It's a shame you did not persist till you got satisfaction as I doubt you will find a finer bike than the Super Delight.