Disadvantage of integrated mid drives that I don't see mentioned

like2lean

New Member
So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?
 

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?
Welcome to EBR! ;)
Glad to hear that your wife likes the Yamaha mid-drive... it's hard to beat for the natural ride feel and reliability.
 

shiruba

Member
I guess I’m one of the few lucky ones then. I have just over 2500 miles on my Shimano E8000 with zero issues. It has been flawless...... Even the chain is original and still in spec. I feel bad for all the other mid-drive owners who must be struggling to keep theirs up and running....
Hmm a decent motor should easily last over 5000km. I have two Ebikes with well over that which have no issue at all, so I think that should be petty standard. The motor is an expensive part, having to change it after 2500 miles would be pretty expensive!

As for the chain, you probably should change that to see sure it doesn't stretch and damage your gears.
 

McCorby

Well-Known Member
Hmm a decent motor should easily last over 5000km. I have two Ebikes with well over that which have no issue at all, so I think that should be petty standard. The motor is an expensive part, having to change it after 2500 miles would be pretty expensive!

As for the chain, you probably should change that to see sure it doesn't stretch and damage your gears.
I did not imply that 2500 miles was an extraordinary acomplishment. I merely reported that mine has that many miles with no issues thus far. Yes, I fully expect it to go thousands more with no issues. One forum member has 40,000 kilometers on his Shimano E8000. That certainly is impressive in my book!


As I previously noted in this thread, I have measured the chain wear and it is still within spec, but will likely replace it at some point next year.
 

EMGX

Active Member
So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?
It is curious to me also how widely perceptions vary between different individuals. I can only give you my impressions. Having ridden with the same TS on two different bikes (tested on a Dahon Jack and then installed on my wife's Dahon Briza) I found the motor to be very quiet in actual use, often imperceptible. I was concerned about the noise heard on youtube videos but that has not been my experience, maybe some of those had the louder metal gear or the mic pickup on the recording device used made it sound louder than it really is? Overall it seems quieter to me that the Yamaha PW-SE motor on my BH gravel bike. It also seems to perform at least as well as the Yamaha PW-SE, the torque sensing is smooth and natural and the assist is strong rated at 80nm compared to the yamaha 70nm. My yamaha powered bike is lighter with larger diameter, thinner, smooth, higher pressure tires and with different gearing so it is difficult to directly compare the power of assist but those peak numbers seem like they might be an accurate comparison to me.

I got mine from eco-ebike.com, they indicate that they do their own firmware programming and also have instructions for DIY programming. I have no interest or need to program the firmware myself. They do have different parameters than some other sellers, mine is 36v 500w 80nm - I got the 36v version because I already had a 36v battery but if I hadn't I would have ordered the 48v 750w 100nm version because my wife needs all the help she can get.

I wouldn't hesitate to convert a regular pedal bike with the TS, with the caveat that you should check your current chainline and compare to the chainline you would get with the TS. the eco bike web site lists the chainline with standard dished 42t chainring as well as using flat chainrings (and a double chainring). For someone more concerned about "Q factor" the TS add on (or even Bafang) might not be a good choice but for me it is excellent. I've never ridden a Bafang mid drive but other than a "ultra" version I understand they don't have torque sensing, which is a requirement for me/my wife and specs I have seen list them as a couple pounds heavier which I would not want.
 
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EMGX

Active Member
My own PW Yamaha Giant Syncdrive gave up the ghost at about 14000 km - so a bit short of 9000 miles.
Were you able to get it repaired, or did you replace the motor (under warranty?) or were you stuck with an expensive unusable motor specific bike frame?
 

Lumr

New Member
Currently I have a Yamaha PW-SE mid drive gravel bike and a Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive on my wife's bike. From what I read mid drives, in general, seem to be reliable and long lasting. But what happens when one breaks down (there are plenty of anecdotes on this forum) ? The motor alone can cost $1000, not including any peripherals or labor for installation, parts might not be available for repair or be too complex for DIY or excessively expensive to have professional repairs done. Down the line motor design can change which can make the bike frame useless if the mounting points or other form factors don't fit. I have regular pedal bikes that are decades old but standard generic parts are still available, it seems unlikely that the same will be true for mid drive frames which are designed for specific proprietary motors as well as batteries. One could pay thousands for a nice mid drive ebike and in not too many years end up with a unusable bike. I like my Yamaha powered gravel bike a lot but most probably wouldn't have bought it (even at the greatly discounted price I paid) if I had been aware of the TS mid drive. I'm just a recreational road/gravel path rider but the TS seems as powerful and refined as the Yamaha, cost less than $650 including peripherals and the battery and can be easily and quickly removed from a bike to return it to it's regular analog state. There are some potential fitment issues on some frames, chainline and chainring considerations etc. but in the long run it, or similar add on kits, could be a better solution than much more expensive bikes with frames made for proprietary motors. Especially for purely recreational road and path riders - which probably covers the majority of ebike riders.
I just installed the TSDZ2 on my Trek Mariner 6. Works well with the latest Open Source V1.1 however I wish there were more videos online to support the installations like there are for the Bafang. I've already installed 2 Bafangs and those are rockets but not torque sensing. I get 37mph on my Catrick with the Bafang using the thumb throttle on a level road. The other is on my older Santa Cruz Blur. Anyway, my TS installed easily and now I have to delve into the Torque calibrations. Wish there was a good video for that.