E-BIKE Act: what do people think?

ephemere

Member
Region
USA
City
Bay Area, CA
The E-BIKE Act was just introduced in the Senate, after being introduced in the House earlier this year.

This is the bill that would provide a 30% tax credit on the purchase of a new e-bike.

Is anyone holding off on buying an e-bike in anticipation of this bill turning into law? Or do you think it's too far off?
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
hmmmm

i'm all for getting more people on e-bikes, but this strikes me as something that will mostly benefit those who don't need it, and of course, tax money must come from somewhere. a lot of these credits are pretty regressive in my opinion. better to simplify the tax code, dump all the various porky credits, and tax everyone at a rate that is revenue neutral.

good to see that it includes all classes, and has a 750w cap. if this goes through i imagine a lot of eBikes will have an MSRP of $5000 to receive the max credit.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Personally it makes no sense a FEDERAL TAX bill recognizes the state class legislation given that the CPSC alone controls what a compliant ebike is thru 1st sale in all 50 states.

I believe they are aware of this mistake and will correct the bill to reference compliant "low speed electric bicycles" per HR727 and CPSC 1512. The 3-class system is not recognized by all 50 states so my guess is this may have been promoted by People for Bikes as a way to get their ?model legislation? adopted in all 50 states.
 

Sierratim

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Nevada City, CA & Paradise Valley, AZ
I'm happy to get such a tax credit for my next n+1 purchase, but I'm not sure it will actually increase the number of ebikes that are regularly ridden. The supply chain/capacity issues that are limiting supply will not be magically over come with this bill.
 

seoprix

New Member
Region
USA
Personally it makes no sense a FEDERAL TAX bill recognizes the state class legislation given that the CPSC alone controls what a compliant ebike is thru 1st sale in all 50 states.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Personally it makes no sense a FEDERAL TAX bill recognizes the state class legislation given that the CPSC alone controls what a compliant ebike is thru 1st sale in all 50 states.
Were you joking around or seriously trying to show your agreement with what I wrote.

Most people on this forum don't even know that the CPSC controls what is compliant for 1st sale in all 50 states. It they did they would see the flaw for this tax bill to reference the 3-class state legislation which HAS NOTHING to do with what is legal for sale anywhere on the planet.
 

rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
Were you joking around or seriously trying to show your agreement with what I wrote.

Most people on this forum don't even know that the CPSC controls what is compliant for 1st sale in all 50 states. It they did they would see the flaw for this tax bill to reference the 3-class state legislation which HAS NOTHING to do with what is legal for sale anywhere on the planet.
actually i think EVERYONE in this forum at this point understands what CPSC has stated with regards to first sale. despite your continued bleating that we’re all idiots or P4B shills.

The “flaw” you state in the tax bill is invented by you because you reject the 3 class ruling. that rejection does not change the FACT that the 3 class guideline is applied every day in hundreds of municipalities nationwide with regards to use. where different bikes can ride.

i’m not sure i see a way to get that back into pandora’s box to be honest. i’d go so far to say there is ZERO chance at this point in time of removing the 3 class designation. ZERO. it is a fait accompli. Any municipalities that now have 3 class designation will never return to no designation. they may update it as time and tech goes on but to go back to anything with two wheels is a bike? no. you’d have to convince me this is remotely possible with examples where it’s actually occurred.

Other than bring your agenda to every single thread you can identify that is even remotely related, the FACT remains that you’ve accomplished nothing in the end. zero. you’ve failed and not only that you’ve compromised any support whatsoever from a community of potentially-affected enthusiasts by treating us all as voices to be squelched instead of stating your case in a context everyday people can empathize with.

you lose the game of debate. you’re under equipped for this party. take your ball and go home quietly.
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
The E-BIKE Act is pointless, and no one even tries to argue otherwise when this point is raised: there is a bike shortage, where there is precisely zero need to whip up demand to use up existing supply.

A better choice would be encouraging bike repairs, analog or electric. Do like France and the UK did and offer repair vouchers - provides work for shops that helps people stay healthy, and keeps more bikes in circulation which helps meet demand.

Moreover, the act purports to reduce emissions, but makes zero limit the subsidy to bikes that are actually useful for daily transport. It's like saying let's do a healthy food subsidy and then you let people spend it on coke and donuts.

Lastly, you're subsidizing something thats already vastly cheaper than the thing you want people to stop using, cars. Paying someone to use something thats already cheap doesn't make sense, and experiments with free public transit suggests it doesn't work well. Better would simply be say a 1-2 month voucher for renting/leasing an ebike. Expose people and then they'll buy one with their own money if it's truly useful. But again, even this doesn't make sense until shortages ease up.

Do $50-100 repair vouchers now, and in 2022 or 2023 50%+ subsidized month long ebike rental.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
actually i think EVERYONE in this forum at this point understands what CPSC has stated with regards to first sale. despite your continued bleating that we’re all idiots or P4B shills.

The “flaw” you state in the tax bill is invented by you because you reject the 3 class ruling. that rejection does not change the FACT that the 3 class guideline is applied every day in hundreds of municipalities nationwide with regards to use. where different bikes can ride.

i’m not sure i see a way to get that back into pandora’s box to be honest. i’d go so far to say there is ZERO chance at this point in time of removing the 3 class designation. ZERO. it is a fait accompli. Any municipalities that now have 3 class designation will never return to no designation. they may update it as time and tech goes on but to go back to anything with two wheels is a bike? no. you’d have to convince me this is remotely possible with examples where it’s actually occurred.

Other than bring your agenda to every single thread you can identify that is even remotely related, the FACT remains that you’ve accomplished nothing in the end. zero. you’ve failed and not only that you’ve compromised any support whatsoever from a community of potentially-affected enthusiasts by treating us all as voices to be squelched instead of stating your case in a context everyday people can empathize with.

you lose the game of debate. you’re under equipped for this party. take your ball and go home quietly.
Funny. The CPSC hasn't even made a decision yet and you claim I've lost. There is certainly a chance they will not preempt but I think you and other ignore the expressed preemption clause in HR727 (that has been used less than 10 times in over 10,000 product definitions). Currie insured it was part of the bill because he was very familiar with the swampy behavior of washington.

My goal is not to win the debate on EBR. I'm am mainly trying to present information. I just hope the CPSC preempts because it will fix the issues created by 3-class legislation.

If the CPSC preempts the municipalities will not have a choice to retain 3-class...it will be in the trash bin where it belongs.
 
Last edited:

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Tendentious
It certainly is contentious for whatever reasons.

I think most that have read any of the posts understands the CPSC does have a preemptive clause that prevents more stringent state definitions of the product that are required prior to introduction into interstate commerce. Here's a litmus test as to why 3-class undeniably crosses that line. Class 1 & 2 have a slower assist cut-off than class 3 so clearly they are MORE STRINGENT than class 3. Well common sense should tell anyone that class 1 and 2 are then more stringent than the federal definition which does not require an assist cut-off (speed is essentially limited by the constraints of the more intelligent definition) and all 3 class models are compliant to the federal definition (in reality if you think about it all 3 are more stringent but the point was to illustrate that class 1 and 2 are more stringent just by the way the class system is structured).
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
actually i think EVERYONE in this forum at this point understands what CPSC has stated with regards to first sale. despite your continued bleating that we’re all idiots or P4B shills.

The “flaw” you state in the tax bill is invented by you because you reject the 3 class ruling. that rejection does not change the FACT that the 3 class guideline is applied every day in hundreds of municipalities nationwide with regards to use. where different bikes can ride.

i’m not sure i see a way to get that back into pandora’s box to be honest. i’d go so far to say there is ZERO chance at this point in time of removing the 3 class designation. ZERO. it is a fait accompli. Any municipalities that now have 3 class designation will never return to no designation. they may update it as time and tech goes on but to go back to anything with two wheels is a bike? no. you’d have to convince me this is remotely possible with examples where it’s actually occurred.

Other than bring your agenda to every single thread you can identify that is even remotely related, the FACT remains that you’ve accomplished nothing in the end. zero. you’ve failed and not only that you’ve compromised any support whatsoever from a community of potentially-affected enthusiasts by treating us all as voices to be squelched instead of stating your case in a context everyday people can empathize with.

you lose the game of debate. you’re under equipped for this party. take your ball and go home quietly.
There are 100s of local municipalities that don't recognize 3-class as well.

I don't think the states will put 3-class back in the box on their own, but if preempted 3-class will have zero legal standing. It can continue to exist as "voluntary" standard for the manufacturers (they can still ship the EU harmonized models here for sale as they will be compliant LSEBs) but the states will have to go back to establishing "use" laws based on one definition for a LSEB. That would just be better for everyone but everyone sees me as the bad guy that is trying to kill bad state legislation.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
If the CPSC preempts the municipalities will not have a choice to retain 3-class...it will be in the trash bin where it belongs.
@everyone... Just imagine what could be accomplished if this energy had been directed somewhere positive. That helped people. Something good could have come from the thousands upon thousands of wasted words and effort expended by the author and the poor bastards who get swept up in these self-aggrandizing moot-point debates.

@rawlus has it right, above. In 2019, 22 states had adopted the 3-class system. In 2020 it was 28 states. In June 2021 the number was 36 states. Also in 2020 and 2021 we saw the 3-class system written into (and recognized by) federal land use regulations for both the Departments of Agriculture and Interior for federal land and national parks.

This steamroller is only going in one direction. Thinking that some bureaucrat in an obscure agency is going to s*it on the now-years of accumulated work of state, local and federal governments - as well as throw a spike into the spokes of an entire industry - is delusional. IF CPSC does anything it will be to harmonize with the 3-class system. Not because its the best, but because it is now the national standard. A fait accompli as noted above with good reason.

If I had my way, things would be different. But they're not and they won't be. I can hold my breath, stamp my foot and type alllllll day long and reality is not going to care one whit that I can type faster and am willing to type more than anyone else.

Free advice: Don't feed the troll.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
@everyone... Just imagine what could be accomplished if this energy had been directed somewhere positive. That helped people. Something good could have come from the thousands upon thousands of wasted words and effort expended by the author and the poor bastards who get swept up in these self-aggrandizing moot-point debates.

@rawlus has it right, above. In 2019, 22 states had adopted the 3-class system. In 2020 it was 28 states. In June 2021 the number was 36 states. Also in 2020 and 2021 we saw the 3-class system written into (and recognized by) federal land use regulations for both the Departments of Agriculture and Interior for federal land and national parks.

This steamroller is only going in one direction. Thinking that some bureaucrat in an obscure agency is going to s*it on the now-years of accumulated work of state, local and federal governments - as well as throw a spike into the spokes of an entire industry - is delusional. IF CPSC does anything it will be to harmonize with the 3-class system. Not because its the best, but because it is now the national standard. A fait accompli as noted above with good reason.

If I had my way, things would be different. But they're not and they won't be. I can hold my breath, stamp my foot and type alllllll day long and reality is not going to care one whit that I can type faster and am willing to type more than anyone else.

Free advice: Don't feed the troll.
I truly believe that if the class system become federal law then there will be insurance and registration on the class 3 / speed pedelecs just as happened in Europe. I view that I'm going to save riders $billions of dollars over the next 20 years if I'm successful at preempting 3-class. That is a huge ROI for my time. The people that understand this have come to my side so I would not call them "poor bastards who get swept up in these self-aggrandizing moot point debates."

Find out who owns control of 1st sale and decide if 3-class impacts the product prior to entry into interstate commerce. Educate yourself instead of spending so much time hammering the messenger. Lets agree to stick to facts and information relating to the debate.