E-scooter rider BUSTED for operating without licence & insurance

jaizon

Active Member
Reason based on anecdotal logic leaves a lot to be desired, don't you think? And yes, the world is a corrupt place. Would you prefer no laws??? Black flagger?
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
This, (IMHO) is not an e-bike and I don't want it lumped in with my e-bike, or my e-bike lumped in with it. I understand the rugged individualist point of view expressed in this thread, but sometimes common sense and logic has to take precedence over personal feelings. I also understand not liking te courts' ruling, but a Formula 1 car should never be street legal, unless you alter it to fill all the requirements of a street legal car (of course, then it wouldn't be an F1 car). Don't like the laws? get them changedd. Don't like the system? That's a whole other story.
Interesting analogy on F1 cars.
Some people do drive F1 cars on street, as you can see, they added headlights, and most likely turn signals (I've seen that on street legalized Indy 500 race car too). I can't see turn signals in the video, but almost always put really small and stealthy LED lights.

Take an F1 car, add all the stuff to make it street legal, but should it be legal on the road or is it still a race car?

Take an electric motorcycle, put pedals, limit it to 500W, 750W, 20mph, 28mph, whatever to satisfy the written definition of "ebike", should it be considered as an ebike?
Nobody would use those "ebikes" as a bicycle, as mentioned, everyone would just use throttle, but that's same as Rad Rover.

 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
This, (IMHO) is not an e-bike and I don't want it lumped in with my e-bike, or my e-bike lumped in with it. I understand the rugged individualist point of view expressed in this thread, but sometimes common sense and logic has to take precedence over personal feelings. I also understand not liking te courts' ruling, but a Formula 1 car should never be street legal, unless you alter it to fill all the requirements of a street legal car (of course, then it wouldn't be an F1 car). Don't like the laws? get them changedd. Don't like the system? That's a whole other story.
It's not an ebike why? What makes it not an ebike? What makes it not fit the description? By looking more closely you will find that we that hate those kind are cheering for our own demise here.
That the rider was not pedaling seems to be implication of it not being an ebike even though it fit the law by having working pedals.
So must an ebike rider always be pedaling or it's not an ebike?
So no throttle.
What if ghost pedaling? Oh, not a ebike.
Those judges just penciled in against all our bikes, even ones without throttle. Because you could always ghost pedal, or have a tiny motor turning th epedals, wehich is nto what was intended according to the penciling-in judge mentality.

So let's talk about the intent of ebike laws, because that judge did NOT use the intent of the lawmakers.
Please let's all tell our idea of the intent of laws allowing ebikes and see that we are cheering for the demise of our beloved vehicles here.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
It's not an ebike why? What makes it not an ebike? What makes it not fit the description? By looking more closely you will find that we that hate those kind are cheering for our own demise here.
That the rider was not pedaling seems to be implication of it not being an ebike even though it fit the law by having working pedals.
So must an ebike rider always be pedaling or it's not an ebike?
So no throttle.
What if ghost pedaling? Oh, not a ebike.
Those judges just penciled in against all our bikes, even ones without throttle. Because you could always ghost pedal, or have a tiny motor turning th epedals, wehich is nto what was intended according to the penciling-in judge mentality.

So let's talk about the intent of ebike laws, because that judge did NOT use the intent of the lawmakers.
Please let's all tell our idea of the intent of laws allowing ebikes and see that we are cheering for the demise of our beloved vehicles here.
Just look at it.

Those things look much more like motorcycles than bicycles.

They love to argue about the fact that he was not pedaling, but I don't think that was the problem. The real problem was, those things look like motorcycles by glance.
It doesn't matter if it has functional pedals, limited power to comply the regulations, etc. They resemble motorcycles.

I've seen people using throttle on their Rad Power, Surface 604 and other ebikes, and they never get pulled over for using throttles.
 

TMH

Well-Known Member
Just look at it.

Those things look much more like motorcycles than bicycles.

They love to argue about the fact that he was not pedaling, but I don't think that was the problem. The real problem was, those things look like motorcycles by glance.
It doesn't matter if it has functional pedals, limited power to comply the regulations, etc. They resemble motorcycles.

I've seen people using throttle on their Rad Power, Surface 604 and other ebikes, and they never get pulled over for using throttles.
By this logic, a child texting on his cell phone at home in his race car bed should be cited for driving without a license and distracted driving "because it looks like a car"???
 

PDoz

Well-Known Member
Ok, so this doesn't look like a bike

No motor, entirely pedal power, it's more bike than anything we ride.

Personally, I hate the companies and customers negotiating around the letter of the law to sneak / cheat what is obviously a motorbike in as an ebike. But I'm a lot more concerned about officials being able to ignore the letter of the law and use judgement. Even on a good day the average judge must get a little frustrated - imagine facing up to court after some wife beater has stretched the judges patience
 

Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
Off topic, but while I was on a group ride and came out of a coffee shop to see a guy getting on an electric scooter. It was a step-through model and in between his legs he had a small Honda generator. While riding he had the generator running to supply power to the battery. Sort of defeats the purpose of an electric scooter. 🤣
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member
By this logic, a child texting on his cell phone at home in his race car bed should be cited for driving without a license and distracted driving "because it looks like a car"???
Okay, I get your point, but what other reason was he pulled over for?

Because the officer thought he was riding a motorcycle (and it did look like it), and he didn't have an insurance or license.
He didn't get pulled over for riding recklessly, the officer saw the ebike (or motorcycle in his mind) didn't have an insurance plate.

The problem was, he was riding what it looked like a motorcycle than a bicycle.
What if he was riding a Surface 604 Rook, at exact same speed with throttle only, 17mph, 20mph, whatever he was doing.

I highly doubt that he would have got pulled over because Surface 604 for example, look more like a bicycle than a motorcycle.
The Surface 604 comes with throttle and totally capable of doing exactly what he was doing on that motorcycle looking ebike.
surface604.jpg


And don't get me wrong, I'm only arguing why he got pulled over at first place.
I'm not saying those motorcycle looking ebikes should be allowed.

I hate it when people try to push the boundaries by claiming those motorcycle looking ebikes as bicycles just because they come with pedals.
Some ebikes can go 60mph (those dirtbike or off road motorcycle looking things) with pedals.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Ok, so this doesn't look like a bike

No motor, entirely pedal power, it's more bike than anything we ride.

Personally, I hate the companies and customers negotiating around the letter of the law to sneak / cheat what is obviously a motorbike in as an ebike. But I'm a lot more concerned about officials being able to ignore the letter of the law and use judgement. Even on a good day the average judge must get a little frustrated - imagine facing up to court after some wife beater has stretched the judges patience
Yeah, because some ebikes like Juiced HyperScrambler or even Super 73 RX, Vintage Electric Shelby, they all come with motorcycle headlights and stuff. Those things can be debatable depending on who you ask..?
 

Alex M

Well-Known Member
They love to argue about the fact that he was not pedaling, but I don't think that was the problem. The real problem was, those things look like motorcycles by glance.
It doesn't matter if it has functional pedals, limited power to comply the regulations, etc. They resemble motorcycles.
Yes, he was pulled of because it looked like a motorcycle. This was the reason for the police.

For courts it matters if it has functional pedals. Calling pedals on this one "functional" would be a stretch. It is no more pedal-able than a car with engine shut down is a handtruck, - sure, you could push it a few yards if you must.

This guy (and manufacturer of these machines) have found a loophole in regulations and are trying to exploit it. It's a new type of vehicle. Clarifications to the rules will be introduced if the problem persists. When cars came in the early 1900s they shared roads with horses, there was no rules, lanes or traffic lights.
 

TMH

Well-Known Member
I recall reading that somewhere (the U.K. maybe?) the first cars were allowed to be driven on public roadways only if preceded by someone walking and waving a flag. The cars were scaring the horses.

But 2-wheeled electric vehicles, in at least the Vespa-like scooter format, with pedals have been around for a long time (at least 10+ years). They have been used for fun, somewhat for utility, but mostly (it seemed to me) by folks who had lost their driver's license. They required no license, registration or insurance. They probably (I don't recall exactly as they weren't of much interest to me) had a power limit, they definitely had a top speed limit, and they were allowed on roadways where the posted speed was not in excess of 35 mph. (I used to work in a BMW Motorcycle and Vespa dealership and folks who had lost their license due to a DUI always wanted to buy 50cc Vespas for their commuting to work. Unfortunately for them even 50cc scooters require license and reg, and even a motorcycle endorsement in California (although this is not the case in all states.) We had to give them the bad news, and recommend that they look at the low powered/with pedals electric scooters instead.)

So the laws are likely in place: electric 2 wheeled vehicles of a certain maximum power and speed and with pedals are classed an electric bicycle (or equivalent) and are allowed to be used in specified places. The pedals on these vehicles are functional. Just not efficient. But they meet the requirements of the law.

I agree with Timpo that this guy likely got initially stopped by the police due to the fact that it looked like he was riding a motorcycle where it was not allowed. (We don't know what else went on, whether or not he was riding like a hooligan and whether the rider was a gentleman or a jerk when stopped by the officer). And we all know that even if we are technically in the right, it can be quite difficult at times to convince a police officer that they are wrong.

We likely know a lot less about this specific case then what actually went on. I may not want or like an electric scooter or motorcycle with pedals like what are being discussed here, but I like even less a judge saying "well that meets the letter of the law but not the intent" (because then it based on his opinion). That can eventually adversely impact any and all e-bikes if a judge personally doesn't like them.

To me it is much like NYC mayor de Blasio, when asked about data which backed up his personal opinion that e-bikes with throttles were dangerous. He replied that it was obvious and 'common sense' (to him, at least) that they were dangerous and (that his opinion) was more important than any scientific date. Pathetic.:mad:
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
Just look at it.

Those things look much more like motorcycles than bicycles.
Absolutely they look like motorcycles. However, not all mopeds look like motorcycles, and the way the judges penciled it in, any moped now needs lic. and insurance.

They love to argue about the fact that he was not pedaling, but I don't think that was the problem. The real problem was, those things look like motorcycles by glance.
It doesn't matter if it has functional pedals, limited power to comply the regulations, etc. They resemble motorcycles.

I've seen people using throttle on their Rad Power, Surface 604 and other ebikes, and they never get pulled over for using throttles.
Yes, he was pulled of because it looked like a motorcycle. This was the reason for the police.

For courts it matters if it has functional pedals. Calling pedals on this one "functional" would be a stretch. It is no more pedal-able than a car with engine shut down is a handtruck, - sure, you could push it a few yards if you must.

This guy (and manufacturer of these machines) have found a loophole in regulations and are trying to exploit it. It's a new type of vehicle. Clarifications to the rules will be introduced if the problem persists. When cars came in the early 1900s they shared roads with horses, there was no rules, lanes or traffic lights.
Yes, those makers are using a loophole on pedal power being able to run the vehicle, but our pedalling abilities are generally speaking ALSO also not up to the ability of all the road-legal ebikes. Climbing long steep hills at full speed with a relatively heavy bike and a pack for a 70-year old after multiple heart surgeries and arthritis? And going 50 miles? Day after day?

That's the thing about judges pencilling in what they want no matter what the law says.

So if it is about TOO MUCH enhancement of ability, then our bikes are toast as well.
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
Calling pedals on this one "functional" would be a stretch.
ONLY if the pedals would not be able to take the strain. If they could take the strain, then it's fully legitimately legal. "Functional" is about the pedals, not the person's ability.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
This, (IMHO) is not an e-bike and I don't want it lumped in with my e-bike, or my e-bike lumped in with it. I understand the rugged individualist point of view expressed in this thread, but sometimes common sense and logic has to take precedence over personal feelings. I also understand not liking te courts' ruling, but a Formula 1 car should never be street legal, unless you alter it to fill all the requirements of a street legal car (of course, then it wouldn't be an F1 car). Don't like the laws? get them changedd. Don't like the system? That's a whole other story.

Don't get me wrong I believe "intent" of the law is a better precedent because it tends to be more clear....like thou shall not kill (but it's obvious there are exceptions even though the intent is crystal clear). My biggest frustration is when Judges and Lawyers just flip flop to whatever puts the most money in their pockets.

As for ebikes that look like mopeds or motorcycles I personally think they are kind of stupid because humans are actually very efficient and effective at providing mobility power up to 32kph/20mph on flat ground on a good bike but gravity (hills) is harsh and I believe that the Class 1 ebike assist limits are too low for ebikes to be effective transportation. A human on a track averaged 33mph for an hour so seems to me that it's just nothing but protectionist policy to limit electrical assist to 32kph/20mph. I know it's going to be debated for a long time but we need human scale tranportation more than we need to worry about ebike tech allowing us to possibly achieve a 50kph average speed on a commute to work on an ebike.
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
So did the judge state the intent of the law or lawmakers or did he just virtue-mention the word "intent"? Yeah. Pencil in hand and virtue-mention intent. Done.
"Oi, de yew 'ave a loicence fer not pedallin' wot looks loike a motorboike?"
 

Handlebars

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
Nothing ebike matters now for CCP-Canada...province just did this:
"
Powers of inspectors

50. (1) An inspector may, at all reasonable times and without a warrant, for the purpose of administering or determining compliance with this Act or the regulations, a code of practice or a measure taken or an order made under this Act or the regulations or to investigate a communicable disease or health hazard, do one or more of the following:

(a) inspect or examine premises, processes, books and records the inspector may consider relevant;

(b) enter any premises;

(c) take samples, conduct tests and make copies, extracts, photographs or videos the inspector considers necessary; or

(d) require a person to

(i) give the inspector all reasonable assistance, including the production of books and records as requested by the inspector and to answer all questions relating to the administration or enforcement of this Act or the regulations, a code of practice or a measure taken or an order made under this Act or the regulations and, for that purpose, require a person to stop a motor vehicle or attend at a premises with the inspector, and

(ii) make available the means to generate and manipulate books and records that are in machine readable or electronic form and any other means or information necessary for the inspector to assess the books and records.



3. Section 55 of the Act is repealed and the following substituted:

Protection from liability

55. The minister, the Minister of Justice and Public Safety, the Chief Medical Officer of Health, a regional medical officer of health, an environmental health officer, an inspector, a regional health authority, a peace officer or other person is not personally liable for anything done or omitted in good faith in the exercise or performance, or intended exercise or performance, of

(a) a power, duty or function conferred or imposed upon him or her by this Act, the regulations or a measure taken or an order made under this Act or the regulations; or

(b) a power, duty or function on behalf of or under the direction of a person on whom the power, duty or function is conferred or imposed by this Act, the regulations or a measure taken or an order made under this Act or the regulations,

or for the costs in connection with an action or proceeding."

It's all over for Canada. Welcome, President Xi.
 

Alex M

Well-Known Member
... I believe that the Class 1 ebike assist limits are too low for ebikes to be effective transportation. A human on a track averaged 33mph for an hour so seems to me that it's just nothing but protectionist policy to limit electrical assist to 32kph/20mph. I know it's going to be debated for a long time but we need human scale tranportation more than we need to worry about ebike tech allowing us to possibly achieve a 50kph average speed on a commute to work on an ebike.
A human on a truck averaging 33mph is safer than a rider of ebike (or scooter, or whatever hybrid it is), averaging the same 33mph.

Bikes are less visible, not equipped with proper turn/brake signals, at sudden stop at 33 mph the truck driver won't feel anything while the biker might fly over the handlebars. Riders are not paying insurance premiums. In an accident the injured rider will get paid by the driver's insurance company regardless of who is at fault. At least, in BC Canada. If allowed to go faster, they will get into accidents more. Maybe should start paying then.
 
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opimax

Well-Known Member
Honest question, aren’t or weren’t the pedals on moped style bikes used to jump start the engine? No starters?