First ride with the Archon X1 upgrade!

TomD

Well-Known Member
OK, update on my Archon X1 experience. I was originally sent a 52V motor by mistake, so the controller would start nannying my 48V battery well before it was approaching life support. My last ride on the 52V motor was a bit comical. I made an unplanned detour that day so was running low on battery, but there should have been plenty of juice to get me home. The controller, thinking I had a 52V battery was only giving me 250W peak power (if that) up the steep 700' hill to get home with 40 pounds of grocery on the rack. Smoke from wildfires had rolled in that day so it was also difficult to breathe. I was only able to pedal in short spurts before I had to stop, completely out of breath and cursing at the controller. I tried walk mode but that was even more comical. About half way up the hill I dumped the 40 pounds of groceries and with every ounce of energy pedaled my 75 pound bike up the rest of the hill with minimal assistance from the controller, then went back for the groceries with the car.

Over the next 2 weeks the air quality was unhealthy for riding, so I got around to installing the 48V motor Pushkar had sent me. Apparently it has the latest firmware as well. I took my first ride earlier this week and was a bit perplexed as this motor just didn't seem as powerful as the one it replaced. I started to wonder if I had been sent a 1000W or 750W controller by mistake, as it felt about half as powerful in any given PAS. My throttle is also limited to just under 750W peak. Not sure if this is for Rohloff, but I don't have Rohloff. I'd say throttle is almost worthless now. I get more power output by bumping the PAS and pedaling. I really hope this is a glitch and not how it's supposed to be. Reminds me of throttle on my M600. Better than nothing but for the most part a big yawn!

I contracted Pushkar to confirm, and he replied back that my motor was logged as having a 2300W controller, so today I tried something new. I put it in Sport mode and wow, I think I do have a 2300W controller, it's just that the new firmware seems to have blended in the 2300W over Eco and Sport , with Sport 1 seeming to take over where Eco 5 leaves off. I don't find any of the Sport settings very smooth though, power is muted at first, then comes on like a freight train, so seems Sport needs more work, but I do like the muted Eco 1-5 and it's more useful now! I get more of a workout in Eco PAS 1 and 2, and tend to ride mostly in Eco PAS 2-3. Throttle is still a yawn in Sport though!
 
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pushkar

Well-Known Member
OK, update on my Archon X1 experience. I was originally sent a 52V motor by mistake, so the controller would start nannying my 48V battery well before it was approaching life support. My last ride on the 52V motor was a bit comical. I made an unplanned detour that day so was running low on battery, but there should have been plenty of juice to get me home. The controller, thinking I had a 52V battery was only giving me 250W peak power (if that) up the steep 700' hill to get home with 40 pounds of grocery on the rack. Smoke from wildfires had rolled in that day so it was also difficult to breathe. I was only able to pedal in short spurts before I had to stop, completely out of breath and cursing at the controller. I tried walk mode but that was even more comical. About half way up the hill I dumped the 40 pounds of groceries and with every ounce of energy pedaled my 75 pound bike up the rest of the hill with minimal assistance from the controller, then went back for the groceries with the car.

Over the next 2 weeks the air quality was unhealthy for riding, so I got around to installing the 48V motor Pushkar had sent me. Apparently it has the latest firmware as well. I took my first ride earlier this week and was a bit perplexed as this motor just didn't seem as powerful as the one it replaced. I started to wonder if I had been sent a 1000W or 750W controller by mistake, as it felt about half as powerful in any given PAS. My throttle is also limited to just under 750W peak. Not sure if this is for Rohloff, but I don't have Rohloff. I'd say throttle is almost worthless now. I get more power output by bumping the PAS and pedaling. I really hope this is a glitch and not how it's supposed to be. Reminds me of throttle on my M600. Better than nothing but for the most part a big yawn!

I contracted Pushkar to confirm, and he replied back that my motor was logged as having a 2300W controller, so today I tried something new. I put it in Sport mode and wow, I think I do have a 2300W controller, it's just that the new firmware seems to have blended in the 2300W over Eco and Sport , with Sport 1 seeming to take over where Eco 5 leaves off. I don't find any of the Sport settings very smooth though, power is muted at first, then comes on like a freight train, so seems Sport needs more work, but I do like the muted Eco 1-5 and it's more useful now! I get more of a workout in Eco PAS 1 and 2, and tend to ride mostly in Eco PAS 2-3. Throttle is still a yawn in Sport though!

I will need to update the profile - we default to 30% (15A) on the throttle on our motors (belt + hub). However we shoudl actually override that if you are planning to use it on a chain. Feedback is noted..
and yes, i owe you cables..
cables for everyone...
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
All I know is throttle is significantly less powerful now. Not that I use throttle much, so not really that big of a deal for me. I thought the issue with Roholoff was more pinning throttle from a stand still? Shouldn't it give more juice when you are up to speed?

FWIW, I can see my display showing a sliver under 750W with throtle. I even tested pedaling and hitting throttle and can see power on the display actually decrease when I hit throttle. In other words, motor is giving more than 750W (display only goes up to 750W) and when I hit throttle display shows power dropping a notch under 750W.
 

vincent

Well-Known Member
I also need to turn up my throttle, don’t use it much but twisting it all the way is for emergencies and I want all the power available

looking forward to doing a little tuning but not much, pretty happy with it😀
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
More riding today and some additional reflections on the new firmware.

1) Sport mode is actually much smoother than I thought. The problem is there is a programming glitch when you switch from Eco to Sport. It retains the Eco setting for some period of time until you pedal for a bit or apply more force, then it abruptly morphs to the actual Sport mode (essentially a 5 level PAS boost) which is why I thought Sport wasn't smooth. It's actually just fine if you are in Sport to begin with, albeit very powerful.

2) I really like the new PAS scale for the 2300W controller. As I mentioned earlier, it seems the 2300W is now mapped to 10 levels of PAS (1-5 in Eco, 6-10 via Sport 1-5). This is really nice because you have sensible Eco PAS 1-5. Eco 1 seems just about right for getting a workout and Eco 5 is plenty of power but not crazy powerful. If you want the latter you can switch to Sport.

3) While throttle is muted to 750W I'm warming up to it. 750W is plenty of juice to get you going from a stop if you need it without wreaking havoc on the drivetrain. No, it's not going to zoom you to 28+ mph in traffic, but that's fine, just switch to PAS 5 and pedal and you'll be at the legal limit in no time. In monitoring watts on my display I notice I'm rarely asking for more than 750W sustained from the motor so it's nice to just hit throttle and maintain momentum if the legs need a short break without hammering the battery or dialing back the throttle which is hard to do manually.

4) Walk mode works differently. Before I needed to be in PAS 0 to enable walk mode. Now walk mode doesn't work in PAS 0. You have to be in PAS 1+ and hold down the minus button. I'm not sure I like this as it seems a safety hazard (many times I have inadvertently hit throttle by mistake when pushing the bike) but I can see some benefits.
 
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scrambler

Active Member
If you are pedaling on a PAS level and gun the throttle, do you feel like the throttle is unrestricted then or is it always restricted?
 

onlineaddy

Well-Known Member
So we cannot turn the throttle up when the cables/software get here?
Would you want to if doing so damages, or at the very least prematurely wears out, your drivetrain? I would imagine the warranty would have a provision against that.
 

vincent

Well-Known Member
Out of all the people on this forum with these bikes I am probably the least likely to wear out my drivetrain or hurt my igh

I’m extremely careful with my bikes and ride much more controlled and calm than most people
but the throttle power is for an emergency and yes I will take that chance
 
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pushkar

Well-Known Member
So we cannot turn the throttle up when the cables/software get here?
You can tweak it up to whatever the peak wattage of the motor is. (e.g. 1000W motor is ~35A peak). I would hesitate to go beyond 25A with Rohloff.
However on a chain, you an do 35A no problem. Rohloff, please try to not go over 25A.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Would you want to if doing so damages, or at the very least prematurely wears out, your drivetrain? I would imagine the warranty would have a provision against that.


You are right. We log the amp changes on the controller and is not user writeable. I will have to update the warranty to be clearer on that. If the rohloff breaks, I will ask for the motor and the rohloff.

If the user set the throttle on belt drive + rohloff to anything above 25A, we will be able to read from the controller setting history.

Most users are not trying to break the rohloff but accidents happen. I just want to draw a line so we can provide the warranty coverage.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
You are right. We log the amp changes on the controller and is not user writeable. I will have to update the warranty to be clearer on that. If the rohloff breaks, I will ask for the motor and the rohloff.

If the user set the throttle on belt drive + rohloff to anything above 25A, we will be able to read from the controller setting history.

Most users are not trying to break the rohloff but accidents happen. I just want to draw a line so we can provide the warranty coverage.
On a 52V battery that is about 1300 watts, is 1300 peak watts on the wrong gear throttle accelerating going to be safe?
There was a thread on the on how many NM watts can produce, it's a complex formula I don't fully understand.
 

scout592

Active Member
You can tweak it up to whatever the peak wattage of the motor is. (e.g. 1000W motor is ~35A peak). I would hesitate to go beyond 25A with Rohloff.
However on a chain, you an do 35A no problem. Rohloff, please try to not go over 25A.

What would be the amps for the Sturmey Archer 3 Speed IGH you recommend or would still meet the warranty? Thanks
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
On a 52V battery that is about 1300 watts, is 1300 peak watts on the wrong gear throttle accelerating going to be safe?
There was a thread on the on how many NM watts can produce, it's a complex formula I don't fully understand.


The guideline is to always use throttle at 7 or under. We have tested up to 25A overall with that config and have no issues. However once we open the rohloff we can find out which "gear" broke .. don't need logs for that 😂


What would be the amps for the Sturmey Archer 3 Speed IGH you recommend or would still meet the warranty? Thanks

Gear 1 or 2 on Sturmey archer are good. Just try to avoid throttle on gear 3 :)
 

reed scott

Active Member
Is it just me or does some of this perhaps sound like Henry and the boys trying to figure out just how to produce a decent self-propelled conveyance?
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Is it just me or does some of this perhaps sound like Henry and the boys trying to figure out just how to produce a decent self-propelled conveyance?

Ha ha.. feels this way sometimes.. doesn't it ? The issue is that all regular bicycle parts were designed with different constraints in mind. Ebikes came around and blew up the design limits.

At WW we try to be upfront about known constraints. We identify exceptions and try to provide workarounds or guidelines as much as possible.

I expect a TON of components to be "ebike" rated in the coming years. Even then, the motors are going to get more powerful, the torque rating will still be high, there will always be extra wear and tear.

That being said, the strength issue will always exist with IGH and cassettes. We all want lighter and stronger components - so you are bound to hit material limits at some point (which is very close to where we are already). People care about IGH because they are usually more expensive. Also - and this is key - the failure point is usually inside the hub, as opposed to the cassette, where failure is broken teeth on the actual sprocket.

It would be awesome if there was an IGH external cog that failed before the gear hub failed. Though it sounds great in theory, it is just not practical for real world applications. We are better off just using a chain at that point.