Given the difficulties finding spare parts, why would a US buyer buy anything other than Bosch?

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I am fairly confident that 99 percent of automotive engineers would have a spontaneous brain aneurysm if they had to account for customer-modifiable open source components in their designs.

Bicycles aren't (yet) as bad.
Funny though, tuners have been selling custom engine management devices for years, and the OBD II port on cars in the US opens up a world of data to those that care to plug in an appropriate device.

Where are those dead automotive engineers you promised? :)
 

indianajo

Well-Known Member
. so you can buy dozens of hub motors what has that got to do with a mid drive ?here are more then just hill climbing to have a mid drive. like torque sensing how smooth and natural it feels. a decent drive train far more efficient too.
You can buy torque sensing with a hub drive with a surface 604 rook. Generic dolphin battery, too.
My hub drive unpowered feels like I'm carrying a 8 lb weight in a front basket. What's unnatural about that? I rode since 9/21 unpowered and am just putting battery back on. Freezing temperature happened last week. I'll ride 85% unpowered all summer. Not the 50 mph wind gust days when wind is in my face. The bike has 24 ratios 1:1 to 4.8:1. What mid drive has that without a 10% loss IGH? I used an 8 speed IGH one spring unpowered: it added 15% to my average trip time compared to 7 speed derailleur. .
 
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Mr. Coffee

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Funny though, tuners have been selling custom engine management devices for years, and the OBD II port on cars in the US opens up a world of data to those that care to plug in an appropriate device.

Where are those dead automotive engineers you promised? :)
Pretty much all of those things void the warranty. And also there is a big difference between reading data and actively changing stuff.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I am fairly confident that 99 percent of automotive engineers would have a spontaneous brain aneurysm if they had to account for customer-modifiable open source components in their designs.

Bicycles aren't (yet) as bad.
it was a huge battle to be able to have universal codes to check engines.
 

retiredNH

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Pretty much all of those things void the warranty. And also there is a big difference between reading data and actively changing stuff.
We seem to be mixing apples and oranges here. My open source comment was about reading data, not changing bike parameters. And I can guarantee you that reading from an OBD II port does not void warranty. Tuners (of which I am not...) tend to swap EC modules in and out. Reminds me of the devices sold to defeat speed restrictions on ebikes. Do those void warranties? Do ebike riders using them take them out before warranty claims?
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
You can buy torque sensing with a hub drive with a surface 604 rook. Generic dolphin battery, too.
My hub drive unpowered feels like I'm carrying a 8 lb weight in a front basket. What's unnatural about that? I rode since 9/21 unpowered and am just putting battery back on. Freezing temperature happened last week. I'll ride 85% unpowered all summer. Not the 50 mph wind gust days when wind is in my face. The bike has 24 ratios 1:1 to 4.8:1. What mid drive has that without a 10% loss IGH? I used an 8 speed IGH one spring unpowered: it added 15% to my average trip time compared to 7 speed derailleur. .
but its rare for the most part. but why would I ride without power? thats why I bought a e bike. I can't go 20mph without a e bike. e bikes feel like a slug without power because they weigh so much and tend to have larger size tires. I want my e bike to feel like a bike but to be able to climb faster and easier and overall travel faster.
 

Mr. Coffee

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
We seem to be mixing apples and oranges here. My open source comment was about reading data, not changing bike parameters. And I can guarantee you that reading from an OBD II port does not void warranty. Tuners (of which I am not...) tend to swap EC modules in and out. Reminds me of the devices sold to defeat speed restrictions on ebikes. Do those void warranties? Do ebike riders using them take them out before warranty claims?
I was specifically referring to the idea of end users installing or modifying software on the vehicle itself. Which I think is a Bad Idea. Catastrophically bad.

If someone swaps an EC module out, you at least have physical evidence for it. If someone swaps software out, you might not.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
The parts shortages that have been a part of life for some time seem to be easing considerably. Compared to mid-pandemic builds I did, the parts acquisition phase of the one I am doing now was a doddle. So I would disagree with the validity of the central premise of the post before I bothered to consider it any further.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I was specifically referring to the idea of end users installing or modifying software on the vehicle itself. Which I think is a Bad Idea. Catastrophically bad.
oh come on. Its a bicycle.

I don't care how fast you go on it, with respect to software and hardware its still a very simple device to work with. Not everyone is mechanically inclined? Sure take that as a given. But just because some people cannot do a thing does not mean it cannot commonly and easily be done should the user take the time to learn their subject.
 

Mulezen

Well-Known Member
My second bike, a Trek, was recommended by LBS over Specialized because of support. Granted the Manager could call the Bosch rep directly (a friend) with questions at any time while Specialized rarely got back in a week. The store (3) have now been acquired by Specialize so things most likely have changed.
My trek Allant 9 did have issues such as the battery lock Which required parts from Trek. I upgraded the hubs because of the beginnings of failure. Never a question with changes. Would I buy a Specialized, yes because of the personnel in my LBS as well as curiosity, But one of wrench’s there advised trying out the boutique bikes because they can often be a better value…which is why a Zen might appeal to me….a Bosch
 

Mike TowpathTraveler

Well-Known Member
Shimano, Brose, Yamaha, and all the miscellaneous third party manufacturers are a huge pain to get replacement parts for in the event of motor failure, to the extent that your bike may be a brick. I have read countless stories of this over the years.

Given that, why would a US buyer get any bike other than Bosch? They seem to be the top manufacturer for after-sale support.

My bike with a Yamaha motor was effectively disabled for several months while I had to source a $15 cable from Europe. I said to myself, the next eBike I get had better have a good after-sale support system in place.
Let's be honest, the US Yamaha ebike drive repair parts stream may not be what it SHOULD be. There is no US Yamaha rep providing input on this forum as Bosch does. Maybe that will come when somebody at Yamaha Power Assist Bikes wakes the freak up and starts taking action. Action as in, they should understand that it is their motor driving a Haibike or a BH and as such, they should be obligated to help a Haibike or BH owner in need of repair parts or advice. I'm not holding my breath. Up until their arrival, the only Yammy powered ebikes were Haibike and Giant. Giant has a good enough support network for themselves. But they are of no help to a Haibike or a BH Yamaha powered ebike owner when something happens requiring their assistance; because their Yammy motor drives are tailored specifically to Giant and no one else.

There are bricked ebike drives and then, there are real bricked ebike drives. In the case of Bill's issue here, he was advised where to get a new speed sensor cable for his BH. Bill may be the first to tell you he put off the cable purchase because of either the price of entry or buying from an overseas (Italy in this case) source. But he may also be the first to tell you that he had the part arrive on his front doorstep in only a few days amount of time & probably wishes he had done it sooner. Many parts for that drive system are out there, you just need to know where to go for 'em. And let's not forget the great work Peter has done at Performance Line Bearings for us Yamaha, Bosch and Brose owners. As far as internal circuit boards or torque sensors; I don't believe none of the major players makes those parts available to anybody; in those cases, it's an outright move to a brand new motor. I stand to be corrected if that is not the case.

Aside from hoping for help from the manufacturer's, I have found this particular forum to have a very deep and experienced group of people who are willing to help with a problem at the drop of the hat!

Things could be worse. Bill could have a Shimano EP8 drive, which has a written history of failure in every ebike forum in the world at this current time. Bikes dying just after a few miles of use. Long wait times for motor replacements that may or may not be coming, resulting in a high dollar ebike sitting unused and inoperable. And the latest: broken/cracked spindle shafts. The curious thing though: it seems I see every new E-MTB on the market features the EP8 drive. From my latest issue of Electric Bike Action: Canyon. Husqvarna. Kona. Santa Cruz. Pivot. Norco. Yeti. Marin. Intense. KHS. Orbea. All with the EP8 or E8000 drive. I feel sorry for anyone buying those mountain bikes. I can only guess that Shimano gave those manufacturer's a cheap price of entry into their drive system vs the Bosch or Yamaha folks. I wonder if Ravi or anyone else privy to that info could shed light into why Shimano, with such a record for unreliable and bricked motors, has found it's way into so many newer bikes on the market.
100_5689.JPG

I'll let this picture do the talking as to why I believe the Yamaha PW was the best drive going. That picture was taken last fall and right now, she is a little under a hundred miles in going to 17,000 miles. Haibike Full FatSix. I placed her into service in April of 2017. Model year 2016 bike. Along the way, in addition to the original 400wh battery (still has 100% battery capacity in it), I picked up 3 additional 500wh batteries. As of this writing and after 17,900 miles of service, below is a list of all the problems I have experienced with my Yamaha PW drive and battery system:

A loosened spoke magnet in Spring, 2017. (tightened it up and continued on my ride)

:D
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Let's be honest, the US Yamaha ebike drive repair parts stream may not be what it SHOULD be. There is no US Yamaha rep providing input on this forum as Bosch does. Maybe that will come when somebody at Yamaha Power Assist Bikes wakes the freak up and starts taking action. Action as in, they should understand that it is their motor driving a Haibike or a BH and as such, they should be obligated to help a Haibike or BH owner in need of repair parts or advice. I'm not holding my breath. Up until their arrival, the only Yammy powered ebikes were Haibike and Giant. Giant has a good enough support network for themselves. But they are of no help to a Haibike or a BH Yamaha powered ebike owner when something happens requiring their assistance; because their Yammy motor drives are tailored specifically to Giant and no one else.

There are bricked ebike drives and then, there are real bricked ebike drives. In the case of Bill's issue here, he was advised where to get a new speed sensor cable for his BH. Bill may be the first to tell you he put off the cable purchase because of either the price of entry or buying from an overseas (Italy in this case) source. But he may also be the first to tell you that he had the part arrive on his front doorstep in only a few days amount of time & probably wishes he had done it sooner. Many parts for that drive system are out there, you just need to know where to go for 'em. And let's not forget the great work Peter has done at Performance Line Bearings for us Yamaha, Bosch and Brose owners. As far as internal circuit boards or torque sensors; I don't believe none of the major players makes those parts available to anybody; in those cases, it's an outright move to a brand new motor. I stand to be corrected if that is not the case.

Aside from hoping for help from the manufacturer's, I have found this particular forum to have a very deep and experienced group of people who are willing to help with a problem at the drop of the hat!

Things could be worse. Bill could have a Shimano EP8 drive, which has a written history of failure in every ebike forum in the world at this current time. Bikes dying just after a few miles of use. Long wait times for motor replacements that may or may not be coming, resulting in a high dollar ebike sitting unused and inoperable. And the latest: broken/cracked spindle shafts. The curious thing though: it seems I see every new E-MTB on the market features the EP8 drive. From my latest issue of Electric Bike Action: Canyon. Husqvarna. Kona. Santa Cruz. Pivot. Norco. Yeti. Marin. Intense. KHS. Orbea. All with the EP8 or E8000 drive. I feel sorry for anyone buying those mountain bikes. I can only guess that Shimano gave those manufacturer's a cheap price of entry into their drive system vs the Bosch or Yamaha folks. I wonder if Ravi or anyone else privy to that info could shed light into why Shimano, with such a record for unreliable and bricked motors, has found it's way into so many newer bikes on the market.View attachment 118847
I'll let this picture do the talking as to why I believe the Yamaha PW was the best drive going. That picture was taken last fall and right now, she is a little under a hundred miles in going to 17,000 miles. Haibike Full FatSix. I placed her into service in April of 2017. Model year 2016 bike. Along the way, in addition to the original 400wh battery (still has 100% battery capacity in it), I picked up 3 additional 500wh batteries. As of this writing and after 17,900 miles of service, below is a list of all the problems I have experienced with my Yamaha PW drive and battery system:

A loosened spoke magnet in Spring, 2017. (tightened it up and continued on my ride)

:D
I like my BH gravel bike with PW-SE, a lot. Original battery is 400w and going strong, farthest I have ridden on a single charge was 73 miles with over 30% remaining charge. Even though I have concerns that if the motor or frame fails I'll have an unusable bike I recently bought a 500w battery for it, including tax it was $450 which was too good of a deal to pass up. I plan on using it for some few day camp/rides this spring and summer. Still, for a combination of price, performance, versatility, reliability and easy parts sourcing a Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit can't be beat IMO. Still, the Yamaha is an impressive performer.
 

Mike TowpathTraveler

Well-Known Member
I like my BH gravel bike with PW-SE, a lot. Original battery is 400w and going strong, farthest I have ridden on a single charge was 73 miles with over 30% remaining charge. Even though I have concerns that if the motor or frame fails I'll have an unusable bike I recently bought a 500w battery for it, including tax it was $450 which was too good of a deal to pass up. I plan on using it for some few day camp/rides this spring and summer. Still, for a combination of price, performance, versatility, reliability and easy parts sourcing a Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit can't be beat IMO. Still, the Yamaha is an impressive performer.
Was that battery an ebay purchase by any chance? There was one listed about 2 weeks ago at that price range and I was thiiiisss close to buying it for myself. The thing that kept me from jumping at it? I had doubts the seller could ship that battery what with battery shipping hassles being what they are. Congrats to you, that was a great buy!

I'm convinced our bikes will last a few decades just as long as we don't abuse them by jumping off cliffs like so many riders these days like to do. The usual wear parts will require replacement. And I see a good number of stand alone motors on places like ebay that we should be good to go if Yamaha can't support us.

I met the OP with his BH and I had my Haibike. I found the BH of his to be every bit a premium bike as the H-Bike was. It was a shame to see them leave our market. Heck, these days, H-Bike in the USA is about dead in the water, too.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Was that battery an ebay purchase by any chance? There was one listed about 2 weeks ago at that price range and I was thiiiisss close to buying it for myself. The thing that kept me from jumping at it? I had doubts the seller could ship that battery what with battery shipping hassles being what they are. Congrats to you, that was a great buy!

I'm convinced our bikes will last a few decades just as long as we don't abuse them by jumping off cliffs like so many riders these days like to do. The usual wear parts will require replacement. And I see a good number of stand alone motors on places like ebay that we should be good to go if Yamaha can't support us.

I met the OP with his BH and I had my Haibike. I found the BH of his to be every bit a premium bike as the H-Bike was. It was a shame to see them leave our market. Heck, these days, H-Bike in the USA is about dead in the water, too.
My guess is probably yes. Glad to have it, I do love that bike and it is getting more use since I removed the Tongsheng from my Schwinn hybrid bike (because I wanted it back as a sub 30# bike).
DSCF0704.JPG


The Schwinn is back to light weight configuration, so nice to ride it without the extra 14ish# weight penalty of a motor/battery.
20190722_142021.jpg
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
If you are going to make an advertisement do it openly.

Bosch supposedly has good warranty service. So when you are under warranty it should be good.

On the other hand If you need to do a software update but you have moved and far away from the shop you purchased the bike from, then tough luck. Bosch will not care and the LBS will charge you (was $30+ idk how it is right now) for a simple software update. Other warranty work, well if you don't take it to the place you bought the bike then once again you are expected to pay for labor. And if you are handy will they let you drop the motor and ship for replacement? I don't think so.

Bosch also locks their system so the support comes with a hefty price tag if you are out of warranty. The small items are ridiculously overpriced. A control unit which is literally 3 buttons is $50!!! which should cost $5.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
If you are going to make an advertisement do it openly.

Bosch supposedly has good warranty service. So when you are under warranty it should be good.

On the other hand If you need to do a software update but you have moved and far away from the shop you purchased the bike from, then tough luck. Bosch will not care and the LBS will charge you (was $30+ idk how it is right now) for a simple software update. Other warranty work, well if you don't take it to the place you bought the bike then once again you are expected to pay for labor. And if you are handy will they let you drop the motor and ship for replacement? I don't think so.

Bosch also locks their system so the support comes with a hefty price tag if you are out of warranty. The small items are ridiculously overpriced. A control unit which is literally 3 buttons is $50!!! which should cost $5.
well trek got my motor replaced out of warranty and it is a bulls bike. no charge to me.of course shops may charge for updates its time for them. some may do it for free.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
well trek got my motor replaced out of warranty and it is a bulls bike. no charge to me.of course shops may charge for updates its time for them. some may do it for free.
Idk why your trek didn't charge you maybe because you purchased a bike from them.

That is not my experience.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
no they started working on it before I bought from them.
What does it matter when they start? Did they specifically tell you that they will do it for free in the beginning ?

After you purchased a bike from them they didn't charge you for your current bike.

You just said that it is ok to charge for software updates because it is their time now saying that they can swap the motor for free which is far more labor intensive than connecting a usb cable for a software update.