haibike xduro-superrace vs Specialized Turbo

flymeaway

Well-Known Member
"Mid drive vs hub> ? never tried a mid drive yet"

You should try a mid-drive.....I ride a Carbon geared hub 350W (nice bike) and a converted Motobecane 500Watt 36V Bafang mid-drive and I prefer the mid-drive by a wide margin.


Court J.
 

PGT

New Member
I'm having a hard time deciding what to buy. I started out testing one of the clearance Turbo's in Vienna, VA. Its a lot of $$$ to spend and not be happy. I've talked to a few of the folks in this thread already; its funny to find this forum via google and then end up seeing names I've spoken to on the phone.
 
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Deleted member 803

Guest
I'm having a hard time deciding what to buy. I started out testing one of the clearance Turbo's in Vienna, VA. Its a lot of $$$ to spend and not be happy. I've talked to a few of the folks in this thread already; its funny to find this forum via google and then end up seeing names I've spoken to on the phone.
I had the same dilemma. The only way I solved it was to ride 20 different bikes which required me to make numerous trips to various dealers over a 3 month period. I enjoyed the education though. I went with a Neo Carbon as I wanted solely a road/city bike and got it at a terrific price. Here is a primer I used for my own purposes:

a. Buy a bike brand where there is a local dealer who offers solid post sale support.
b. Understand that e-bikes and their technology are very immature and likely to change fairly quickly as new models are introduced.
c. Buy a geometry that is designed for your riding purposes. i.e if you plan mostly off-road, buy a bike that has the frame geometry and suspension of an off road bike
d. Try e-bikes on as many hills as you can find to judge competency for your purposes. Mid-drives tend to have greater hill climbing but rear hubs are great for being quick off the line and getting up to speed.
e. Calculate your average ride length and make sure that the battery capacity is sufficient for your purpose.
f. Grade of components (other than motor and battery) are secondary as they can be upgraded as desired
h. Buy with an understanding that you will probably sell the bike in 2 years to buy something else.
 

PGT

New Member
Thanks. I've been looking at a Stromer ST1, a few Haibike models and the Grace belt models. Main purpose is a 35 mile round trip commute but there are some hills and gravel - nothing too major though.
 

DashRiprock

Active Member
Peak and Haibike SR have nothing in common. Geometry is different, componentry is different, and motor/electronics are radically different.

My thoughts centered around the (what I consider 'large') gap in price between what we paid for a mid-drive Peak and at least 'most' of these higher end mid-drive models in terms of the same basic components offered. Put another way, since I disagree that they have "nothing in common"...I think it is entirely possible to compare the 'value' of at least the basic (type) components that they do share.
I would like to share your "...understanding that you will probably sell the bike in 2 years to buy something else.." and "...understand that e-bikes and their technology are very immature and likely to change fairly quickly as new models are introduced..." recommendations.
Knowing exactly why one is paying three to four times 'more' for one model over another would certainly help me live/justify that dream.

"..I'd probably use another car analogy as the Civic is a significantly better automobile than a Cadillac (yuk)..."

Since 'Government Motors' was turned into nothing but a political pawn at the taxpayer's expense...I have no love for the brand and own a Honda.
Yet are you comparing the Civic coupe to this one?: http://www.cadillac.com/cts-v-sport-coupe.html
 
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DashRiprock

Active Member
This is true for many industries. Having spent years in China you'd be amazed at the various well known world brands that come from a single factory.
I can only imagine..which is why I have a hard time even considering paying more than we did for our Peak (approx. 25% of what some of the bikes mentioned above are MSRPing for)...then turning around and trying to sell an obsolete boat anchor 2 years later for...what?
I respect everybody's right and desire to buy anything that they want and laud the manufacturers for producing them. I am simply blown away by the prices that at least some of these ebikes are evidently commanding with similar designs evidently working somewhere 'near' as well.
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
If you're just commuting or tooling around on roads and paths, no need for some ridiculously expensive eBike... now that depends on what you consider expensive. Quality can be had for 2-3k.. And if youre a smart shopper you can buy a demo or a lightly used ebike..

expensive bikes are great if you plan on using them as intended... like dh trails or off road where a FS bike can really shine...
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
it's all fun and games until your ride breaks down. Like it or not, by making the bike heavy and electronic we have increased complexities of our transportation vehicle and there aren't any 10 garages in tow that can fix you up and send you on your merry way.

I say if you going to depend on the bike as a primary commuting device you'd better have a backup ebike or be ready to wait a while before you can ride again.

all the increased speed, road impacts and vibrations are going to leave a mark on the electrical systems sooner or later. And then you better have a good warranty, good quality components, frame built to withstand the wear and tear.

for example knowing that the magnets are held together by a glue...evry glue as it ages it dries, diminishes, contracts...all the road vibrations and impacts...don't think you can ride an ebike five days per week and expect it to last more than a few years before service is needed.

in my mind you'd better be able to afford it and enjoy the toy or calculate how much money you are saving, better yet set the money saved aside every day in a piggy bank somewhere and be content with the fact you may need to buy a new bike in a few years. Even if you just break even, the health benefits gained should be appreciated.
 

DashRiprock

Active Member
You should be thrilled that the Obama administration stepped in to loan money to GM. It is estimated that GM's return to health saved 176,000 jobs. The loan was paid back with interest so the net result is that folks like you got to keep your job and the American public made a profit.

As much as I absolutely hate to quote "CNN"...I managed to do so immediately following the long 'sigh' after reading the above:
http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/29/news/companies/gm-profit-bailout/index.html
"..Taxpayers came up short because the U.S. decided to buy GM stock to keep the automaker alive instead of giving it a loan and saddling it with more debt.
Although GM has been very profitable since 2009, its stock price never rose to a level that let Treasury to recoup that investment.
"Our goal was never to make a profit but to stabilize the auto industry," said one Treasury official on background the day it sold its final GM shares (and as he refused to put his crack pipe down). "By any measure, we succeeded."


Just for the record...anytime a government is forced to borrow, print and devalue the national treasure (currency) required to both manipulate markets AND illegally prop up failed/corrupted labor unions at the same time...no matter what the reason...it's a bad idea (and was/still is).
 
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DashRiprock

Active Member
Lastly, value is a personal thing. There is a point in every purchase where incremental improvements in quality and performance meet a steep pricing curve. Value has many definitions: only one of which is price.

I don't want to get into how anybody 'values' anything and have said so already. Price has only been interjected so as to measure any individually perceived build and/or satisfaction quality of individual components as compared with each other (TransX vs Bosch, etc.). So far, nobody has come forward to explain exactly how much better any individual components are from another with a price difference included. If the difference in (for example) these two components is "incremental" (by definition: 'small increments') then at last I've made my point! :)
 
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No Name

New Member
Wow, I had no idea a simple question would devolve to the type of discussion that is going on now.
Personally, I'm using this board to get "enthusiasts" opinions on e-bikes. What better place to go.
I think pricing is relative. I'm transitioning from working in Baltimore to working in DC.
I drive a 70k car which costs ~16k per year to use to commute to Baltimore (parking, gas, maintenance, tires, insurance, tolls, etc). Maintaining a car is expensive!!!
An e-bike will help me maintain my fitness level, help the environment, and recoup my investment within a few months.
Capitalism is capitalism. We are nickled and dimed daily. The cost of an e-bike is peanuts compared to a car, especially after 2-5 years.

Of course, I'd rather buy a 2k e-bike then a 7k e-bike. However, I really want to be educated. I don't commute in a Civic for a reason.
From what I've learned so far, price does effect:
1. Weight
2. Components
3. Technology

Bottom line, I want my primary mode of transportation to be
1. Trustworthy
2. "Fun"
3. Light (there will be times when I run out of juice and I'll need to pedal)
4. Ability to purchase two batteries
5. Not have that "e-bike" look. I want it to look nice.

Technologies are changing
hub vs mid-level: GoSwiss vs Bosch

There is no car show or magazine I can go to to be informed. This is it. I find everyone's input useful.
I'm even considering purchasing in Europe or doing a group buy.
I could care less about GM or Obama or Sunglasses.....just help an idiot out :)
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
Don't know why politics gets embedded. If you are just commuting and not trail riding there are a lot of great choices. Check out crazy Lenny's offer for a Stromer platinum demo for $2500. That is all the commuter bike you'll ever need

That hub motor is proven reliable plus it comes with a 3 year waranty.
 

DashRiprock

Active Member
"...I think pricing is relative...The cost of an e-bike is peanuts compared to a car, especially after 2-5 years.

Of course, I'd rather buy a 2k e-bike then a 7k e-bike. However, I really want to be educated. I don't commute in a Civic for a reason.
From what I've learned so far, price does effect:
1. Weight
2. Components
3. Technology

Bottom line, I want my primary mode of transportation to be
1. Trustworthy
2. "Fun"
3. Light (there will be times when I run out of juice and I'll need to pedal)
4. Ability to purchase two batteries
5. Not have that "e-bike" look. I want it to look nice.

Technologies are changing
hub vs mid-level: GoSwiss vs Bosch

There is no car show or magazine I can go to to be informed. This is it. I find everyone's input useful.
I'm even considering purchasing in Europe or doing a group buy.
I could care less about GM or Obama or Sunglasses.....just help an idiot out :)

Here's your show (there used to be cheap flights to Vegas years ago) and here are a few magazines:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
http://www.electricbikeaction.com
Who will be at the show or not and whether these mags are any good I have no idea...yet it's a "start' beyond this forum.
I am complete agreement in terms of price and even more in terms of "wanting to be educated" in regards to one model vs another and 'why' another (necessarily) costs 4 times as much. This is where at least I entered the discussion when different brands were being thrown around vs apparently the OP's titled intent.
Here's my point in a nut shell.
These are bicycles. If we all thought that we could 'get by' using them or save the world from whatever present threat is more important than people cutting our heads off and ending our society as we know it...we'd do it. They are flimsy, prone to breakage, easily stolen and will let you down when you least expect. If one feels that all they have to do is spend the most money possible and none of this will happen..I'm not going to argue that. If they further feel that breaking down the components (one by one) and valuing them in terms of comparative price between the wholes is a fruitless exercise (see this discussion to date at least) then my advice would be to just spend the 10 grand or whatever it will be for the 2015 (cough) 'bulletproof bike' and be done with it.

If I was commuting and loved it so much...I'd have a spare. If I was working hard enough 49 weeks/year to have $20,000 wrapped up in bikes...I'd be somewhat concerned that I might only need a fifth of that in all reality..which covers a lot of simple maintenance at the bike shop (performed regardless).

As far as 'Obama' goes...and don't get me started on "Common Core" if you know what's good for you! ;)...I feel it is everybody's duty to respond truthfully whenever we are told to be 'thrilled' by (insert action here)...as our children's soon to be world/future frankly spins out of control before our very eyes..at this very moment.

Good luck in your search.
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
I've used ebikes since 2009 and it has saved me from buying a new car since most of my local trips are by bike. City miles are hard on cars.

Before you buy an ebike for commuting you should first know your commute. Is it bike friendly all the way? Do you really want to rub shoulders with cars during rush hour every day ? Is the ride on goad roads? If so don't waste money on a full suspension bike. Even a front suspension is questionable

You will need a great helmet super bright flashers front and rear and fenders and some comfy seat. Also need a second battery and charger. And top of the line tires like schwalbe or maxxis.

In spite of any top speed claims your real world average will be 17 mph. How long will your commute be and is that cool?

Mid drives are getting a lot attention since Bosch and Yamaha are dropping serious coin in the technology. Doesn't have a long record on the consumer market.
 

Brambor

Well-Known Member
Right on JoePah. My commute is fine and thhe stiffer the bike, the smoother the tires the better for me. But on some occassions I tried to go home a different way and encountered some roads where I would want a 'bumpsmoothingsolution'. For winter I am planning a different route, bumpier, will have to deal with darkness on the way in and out, snow, ice ... for that I need a totally different bike.

Choose the best tool for the job and be realistic with your expectations.
 

PGT

New Member
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Haibike but there's no dealer I can find on the east coast. Maybe that will change soon but I'll be SOL for any reflashes that need to happen. Wonder if I can buy the dongle and software myself.
 
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Deleted member 803

Guest
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Haibike but there's no dealer I can find on the east coast. Maybe that will change soon but I'll be SOL for any reflashes that need to happen. Wonder if I can buy the dongle and software myself.
As you may know there is a dealer in the UK selling a Gen 2 dongle but it appears as if he restricts sale to bikes purchased. If you have a friend in the UK near this shop perhaps you can obtain one.

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/bosch-tuning-dongle-working-on-gen2-bosch-ebikes/
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Haibike but there's no dealer I can find on the east coast. Maybe that will change soon but I'll be SOL for any reflashes that need to happen. Wonder if I can buy the dongle and software myself.

How will you buy the bike if no dealer is near you? Mail order? How will any warranty work get done?
 

Chris Nolte

Well-Known Member
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Haibike but there's no dealer I can find on the east coast. Maybe that will change soon but I'll be SOL for any reflashes that need to happen. Wonder if I can buy the dongle and software myself.
Where are you located? I'm on the east coast. In NY to be precise (my shop is longislandelectricbikes.com), but I'm actually in Germany at Eurobike till the end of the week. Shoot me an email at chris@longislandelectricbikes.com and I'll be happy to help you with both matters.
 
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