Have you seen the revised Helios?

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
Helios.jpg



It's going to have a rear suspension so like the Frey CC with the new Kindernay 7 speed Internal Gear Hub with a Watt Wagons proprietary belt drive able to handle 500nm of torque
8K Price tag
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Are those the wooden frames? I assume it's fair game to post the step thru renders.

render1.jpeg


render2.jpeg


Still wondering if the seat post on the step thru needs more reinforcement. Seem like there will be a lot of torque down low. Compare to the beefiness of the seat post reinforcement on the Helios render to the Frey CC and R&M Homage step thru keeping in mind those are aluminum frames whereas helios is CF.

20191004024006825.jpg


21_hlf_hom_federung_5597.jpg
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I really like the rack. Thats part of what is MIA on street commuters: Full suspension and a rack to carry your crap. I really liked the Frey CC for that reason but could never bring myself to buy one.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Are those the wooden frames? I assume it's fair game to post the step thru renders.

View attachment 104447

View attachment 104446

Still wondering if the seat post on the step thru needs more reinforcement. Seem like there will be a lot of torque down low. Compare to the beefiness of the seat post reinforcement on the Helios render to the Frey CC and R&M Homage step thru keeping in mind those are aluminum frames whereas helios is CF.

20191004024006825.jpg


21_hlf_hom_federung_5597.jpg
We will be going through the frame specific tests too. The seat post on the step through has a little more material than the diamond.

Typical molds in carbon can also be made with EPS. We just used wood and steel - quicker to do it like that.
 

Rider777

Member
Region
USA
City
Vegas
Thanks for the quick response.

As a potential customer for Watt Wagon I have been following the relative threads for quite some time.

As such , I have noticed that Pushkar is very attentive when selling a product and not so much after the sale :(

I am a current owner (and have owned many ebikes) of the 2020 R&M Delite GT Touring with CX pkg (5,700 miles) And also a 2020 Haibike Full Fat Six 10.0.

The Delite has been rock solid with absolutely no issues. My previous R&M was a Nevo GT Touring HS with 4,300 miles (also rock solid with no issues) before I sold it privately for 50% of what I paid for it new.

As posted earlier: Buyer Beware.

There are many other overall better options out there.
 
As a potential customer for Watt Wagon I have been following the relative threads for quite some time.

As such , I have noticed that Pushkar is very attentive when selling a product and not so much after the sale :(

I am a current owner (and have owned many ebikes) of the 2020 R&M Delite GT Touring with CX pkg (5,700 miles) And also a 2020 Haibike Full Fat Six 10.0.

The Delite has been rock solid with absolutely no issues. My previous R&M was a Nevo GT Touring HS with 4,300 miles (also rock solid with no issues) before I sold it privately for 50% of what I paid for it new.

As posted earlier: Buyer Beware.

There are many other overall better options out there.
Thanks for the heads up but I’m more than comfortable buying from Watt Wagons. In fact, this will be my second bike from them as I have an UC Pro to ride until it this new model ships. This bike is just what I want and the wait will be worth it to me.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
As a potential customer for Watt Wagon I have been following the relative threads for quite some time.

As such , I have noticed that Pushkar is very attentive when selling a product and not so much after the sale :(

I am a current owner (and have owned many ebikes) of the 2020 R&M Delite GT Touring with CX pkg (5,700 miles) And also a 2020 Haibike Full Fat Six 10.0.

The Delite has been rock solid with absolutely no issues. My previous R&M was a Nevo GT Touring HS with 4,300 miles (also rock solid with no issues) before I sold it privately for 50% of what I paid for it new.

As posted earlier: Buyer Beware.

There are many other overall better options out there.


@Rider777 I appreciate bringing this up.

1. Other than the now doomed hardtail founder bike debacle, and 3-4 kindernays leaking, we have few issues after sale. Are there other items you are referring to ? Please point them to us.

2. You are absolutely right.. buyer beware. It behooves everyone to read what happens when we have promised stuff we dont have. Learning from all this for us is to test and have a product before we take any orders ( like we did with Hydra/ UC Pro / Crosstour etc). The hardtail (old suer bike) is more an exception than the rule. We cant change what happened in the past.

3. The reason you are happy with a RM, was not just that it was a good bike, but that there was always a dealer to help you in case stuff went wrong. RM also has its blemishes (esp with Rohloff configs ). So let's take all glowing reviews with a pinch of salt. Ditto with buyer beware posts.

4. Folks like are extremely happy to pay 10k for a bike (RM / Specialized) worth 4k in parts if its backed up with good service, physical locations, after sales support etc. I am absolutely thrilled you liked the service with RM, and we hope to emulate that as we move forward. With the new Helios, and all other upcoming bikes, we are also going through a dealer model.

5. We also want to charge a fair price moving forward. The whole founder debacle was not just about missed timelines and terrible luck, but also about cost pressures eventually. With low cost inventory tied up for over 12-14 months, we weren't able to do a whole lot to change / evolve. We have had to return stuff for the lack of funds! Incredible.

Charging a fair price, whatever that happens to be, for a product that is ready to ship, is absolutely what we intend to do. We have realized that trying to drive down cost, crowdfunding etc at our level is detrimental to business.


Thus. moving forward we are not proposing any model unless we are ready to ship or, for existing bikes, we know when the components are available . The current site Hydra and UC pro timelines reflect our new policy. With Helios, we will follow the same model (dealers or a realistic D2C).

We understand our bike may not be for everyone. There will be people who wait, and buy something else, that is great as well. Always buy the bike you like.
 

Rider777

Member
Region
USA
City
Vegas
@Rider777 I appreciate bringing this up.

1. Other than the now doomed hardtail founder bike debacle, and 3-4 kindernays leaking, we have few issues after sale. Are there other items you are referring to ? Please point them to us.

2. You are absolutely right.. buyer beware. It behooves everyone to read what happens when we have promised stuff we dont have. Learning from all this for us is to test and have a product before we take any orders ( like we did with Hydra/ UC Pro / Crosstour etc). The hardtail (old suer bike) is more an exception than the rule. We cant change what happened in the past.

3. The reason you are happy with a RM, was not just that it was a good bike, but that there was always a dealer to help you in case stuff went wrong. RM also has its blemishes (esp with Rohloff configs ). So let's take all glowing reviews with a pinch of salt. Ditto with buyer beware posts.

4. Folks like are extremely happy to pay 10k for a bike (RM / Specialized) worth 4k in parts if its backed up with good service, physical locations, after sales support etc. I am absolutely thrilled you liked the service with RM, and we hope to emulate that as we move forward. With the new Helios, and all other upcoming bikes, we are also going through a dealer model.

5. We also want to charge a fair price moving forward. The whole founder debacle was not just about missed timelines and terrible luck, but also about cost pressures eventually. With low cost inventory tied up for over 12-14 months, we weren't able to do a whole lot to change / evolve. We have had to return stuff for the lack of funds! Incredible.

Charging a fair price, whatever that happens to be, for a product that is ready to ship, is absolutely what we intend to do. We have realized that trying to drive down cost, crowdfunding etc at our level is detrimental to business.


Thus. moving forward we are not proposing any model unless we are ready to ship or, for existing bikes, we know when the components are available . The current site Hydra and UC pro timelines reflect our new policy. With Helios, we will follow the same model (dealers or a realistic D2C).

We understand our bike may not be for everyone. There will be people who wait, and buy something else, that is great as well. Always buy the bike you like.

Thanks for your reply.

It was well said and your intentions sound good.

RE: Rohloff…..that’s why I bought the Touring model with cassette and chain. It can be easily repaired, it’s way way less expensive initially, efficiency is much better, much less unsprung weight, a more sporty feel, and I can easily change gearing configurations .

RE, your #4: MSRP on my current R&M was $7200, which is what I paid. Not the $10K you mention.
And If/when the bike needs repair (Bosch power train) I can go to one source (the R&M dealer) and have it repaired. Keep in mind I have a little over 10,000 miles on the two R&M’s I’ve owned without any ebike related problems. Sure I’ve changed a chain or two , brake pads , the usual owner performed maintenance items. Easy.
If I’m not mistaken if a WW needs repair the buyer has to contact you/WW and wait (sometimes quite a while) for a response and then troubleshoot over the phone. If that is successful (would be a challenge) then I believe you’d have to contact the manufacturer of broken component and work out a solution. This could/would take weeks and weeks and to say the least very frustrating for the buyer.
Doesn’t seem worth roughly the same money for an R&M or other mainstream manufacturer.

I really really like the bikes that I currently own……hence the high miles in a short time of use.

Thanks !
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply.

It was well said and your intentions sound good.
👍
RE: Rohloff…..that’s why I bought the Touring model with cassette and chain. It can be easily repaired, it’s way way less expensive initially, efficiency is much better, much less unsprung weight, a more sporty feel, and I can easily change gearing configurations .

RE, your #4: MSRP on my current R&M was $7200, which is what I paid. Not the $10K you mention.
Cool. That bike is $~2.8k in parts, including motor, battery, lights, frame, components. assembly. There is a premium for RM- including service etc, and I am glad you are getting the service you paid for. That is what we want to achieve - great pre and post sales service, in addition to a great bike.

And If/when the bike needs repair (Bosch power train) I can go to one source (the R&M dealer) and have it repaired. Keep in mind I have a little over 10,000 miles on the two R&M’s I’ve owned without any ebike related problems. Sure I’ve changed a chain or two , brake pads , the usual owner performed maintenance items. Easy.
Boom. Dealerships are great. Must have for a premium brand.

If I’m not mistaken if a WW needs repair the buyer has to contact you/WW and wait (sometimes quite a while) for a response and then troubleshoot over the phone. If that is successful (would be a challenge) then I believe you’d have to contact the manufacturer of broken component and work out a solution. This could/would take weeks and weeks and to say the least very frustrating for the buyer.
Doesn’t seem worth roughly the same money for an R&M or other mainstream manufacturer.

Looking through all logged service tickets, Kindernay is the only one where we have had over 1 week delay, cos they havent allowed us to service directly. We also had 2 motors that just took forever to resolve. We have pretty much prioritized existing customers over any new order. May be not the way to do. This is across 2 years work of post sales service - Most parts (brake levers, broken belts, derailleurs, battery connections etc.) are sent out asap or within a reasonable amount of time. Riders may still have to go get it installed at a bike shop, but that process has been somewhat less problematic.

Issue we are running into today, post delivery, are slightly more involved - e.g. someone buys a bike, we ship it, and the brake needs to be re-bled (maguras esp). That SUCKS. There is literally no recourse but to go to a dealer and get it done the right way. Or the cables were too loose when assembling the bike back. Dealerships and a solid trained tech will help us address it.

I really really like the bikes that I currently own……hence the high miles in a short time of use.

Thanks !
Happy riding.



We are not perfect. We are putting out a good product. We need to get much, much better at setting the right expectations. There have been times where we / I are not able to follow up despite setting up deadlines - that has to stop. We dont want to do that anymore. We absolutely will hear some negative reviews for the past eff-ups for the next 3-4 months till the new bike is in rider's hands - hopefully the product and service will speak to it.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
The whole founder debacle was not just about missed timelines and terrible luck, but also about cost pressures eventually. With low cost inventory tied up for over 12-14 months, we weren't able to do a whole lot to change / evolve. We have had to return stuff for the lack of funds! Incredible.

The inventory was paid for by founder money. Without founder money there would be no inventory. It didn't matter that money was tied up in inventory. You crowd sourced a bike at close to zero profit margin, so when things went bad you end up eating the loss ( assuming you pay everyone back) which eats into your free capital. If you hadn't crowd sourced, you still eat those losses. Inventory had nothing to do with it. You are perhaps fortunate that you could return the inventory in this COVID environment. What constrained you from moving forward was a commitment, which you ultimately needed to break away from.