Hey Group, I got my new Pioneer Allroad today.

stevenast

Well-Known Member
I have to call you out a bit ,here SteveN.

First, you are claiming Optibike of false advertising their power of 500W as a peak result. here are results from an owner in a thread:

Don't know if this helps any...
Just went for a ride and here is the wattage the display read at each level of assist. I rode on flat ground and kept a peddle cadence of around 85rpm. Here are the peddle assist levels and watts.
1=83watts, 2= 170watts, 3= 260watts, 4=385watts, 5=513watts

They advertise 500W because it gives 500W in level 5, with a good charge I assume. That is a nominal, steady state value you would see on flat ground.

Second, you seem to make a bullseye attach on a small, upstart, US company, who offers their first "low cost" product and you question their profit motives? You are the only member I have seen on this forum, so far, to make such a claim in 2-3 posts, about any company. Is not Haibike seeking a profit and trying to be solvent? Currie too? I don't get the knee jerk reaction to a 3k bike.?.
First of all, I should not have used the term "allprofit", & I apologize. Nothing wrong with profit!! My fault; I am sincerely sorry. However, they ARE making a huge profit, as shown by other member's posts in this thread, selling a generic ebike. The details can be found above, in this thread, so I won't rehash that! :)

You are 100% correct when you say that other companies are also making a BIG profit. I absolutely agree with you! Nothing wrong with making a profit, but there's nothing wrong with consumers looking for good value either.

I respectfully point out that I never used the term false advertising.

What I am saying, regarding the advertising, is that the standard is nominal watts, not peak watts. Most companies advertise their motors by something called nominal wattage. All those motors are able to put out more wattage at peak, but they don't advertise it that way.

So there's nothing false about it, but I just want to compare apples to apples!
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Hey there..
I think you guys that have bought a pioneer allroad are being ripped off.

I have brought what appears to be the identical bike (ok last year's model) for just less than NZ $2000.
That's about US $1700.

The motor output is a legally restricted 300 watts. But I have been assured that it is the exact same motor as the optibike.

Anyone interested checkout bofeili. co.nz. And no I have no affiliation with the company.

My thoughts on the bike are similar to others. Even at 300 watts, hills that I would struggle to even walk up are a breeze. As I live in a valley that was one of the main reasons I brought a mid drive.

After not having ridden a bike for 20 or do years it's taking a little while to getting accustomed to being on a bike again. And I still find myself crunching the gears....Do'h

Have had the bike about 8 weeks now. And love it.

I also got a back rack for the bike and panniers so can now do my grocery shopping.

Only down side is that it doesn't have integrated headlights. But did come with an add on front light. And no instructions on mounting the carrier rack. (This is someone that needs instructions to operate an adjustable wrench-sigh)
This post especially tells the tale. +1
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
First of all, I should not have used the term "allprofit", & I apologize. Nothing wrong with profit!! My fault; I am sincerely sorry. However, they ARE making a huge profit, as shown by other member's posts in this thread, selling a generic ebike. The details can be found above, in this thread, so I won't rehash that! :)

You are 100% correct when you say that other companies are also making a BIG profit. I absolutely agree with you! Nothing wrong with making a profit, but there's nothing wrong with consumers looking for good value either.

I respectfully point out that I never used the term false advertising.

What I am saying, regarding the advertising, is that the standard is nominal watts, not peak watts. Most companies advertise their motors by something called nominal wattage. All those motors are able to put out more wattage at peak, but they don't advertise it that way.

So there's nothing false about it, but I just want to compare apples to apples!
No need to apologize. I think you are just taking issue with Optibike's apparent profit margin ... it's a free world. I have not compared the specs between the AUS and US models, nor have I considered transportation fees ~ in the end, $3k for this quality of an ebike is not a big mark up compared to other vendors and what they sell. I just think you, and bearhugman are over reacting here... and BH goes on to post about his bike and performance.

About power... you are absolutely correct to say vendors will post a nominal and peak wattage. My issue with your post is that the Optibike spec of 500W is for nominal, not peak, because riders have posted steady state power readings, I know Optibike posts by the maximum nominal power, and that the motors will "peak" much higher during acceleration and during gear shifts.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
My issue with your post is that the Optibike spec of 500W is for nominal
I understand. I agree with you. :)

If you read the whole thread you will see there is no discrepancy.

I will state again, I was referring to the Australian-sold version of this generic bike, not the one marketed by Optibike in the US, when I was talking about peak watts.

Edit: correction, looking back it might be New Zealand rather than Australia. Either way not the U.S. version.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I understand too, that you were thinking AUSSIE/NZ specs, not US. NP. MAybe that's why his is proportionally cheaper?? LOL.
 

Kaldeem

Active Member
You guys should know, I've talked to Optibike, and spoken about their price markups compared to similarly spec'd bikes and etc. They make no qualms about it, Neal has told me on several accounts that they market to a very specific "affluent" group of people, and that their bikes are not for everyone; and the Pioneer Allroad is there attempt at meeting the middle class.

FYI, I live in Denver, so I've been there and seen that.
 

bearhugman

New Member
I understand. I agree with you. :)

If you read the whole thread you will see there is no discrepancy.

I will state again, I was referring to the Australian-sold version of this generic bike, not the one marketed by Optibike in the US, when I was talking about peak watts.

Edit: correction, looking back it might be New Zealand rather than Australia. Either way not the U.S. version.
Yes. Well.

New Zealand is not Australia. We are a different country.

And I still maintain that optibike seems to be making a huge profit. On what is essentially a direct Chinese imported ebike.


My bike was a little more expensive than some hub motor ebikes locally available. But one of the the few mid drive bikes available in NZ. And I'm sure the distributor of the bofeili brand is certainly making a profit.

I certainly i am glad I brought the bike but as a consumer I would be pissed if I paid a thousand dollars or more for a identical product (as it seems ) just because I lived in a different country.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
You guys should know, I've talked to Optibike, ....and the Pioneer Allroad is there attempt at meeting the middle class.

FYI, I live in Denver, so I've been there and seen that.
Well there you go, Pioneer is priced for the average market.
 

MLB

Well-Known Member
You mean aka Opibike Allprofit!

Re: watts, peak output is always higher than nominal rating.

If a company can make a good profit selling this for $1700 US in NZ, I'm guessing it costs about $900 US to the dealer. That means Optibike takes a 200% or more markup on this product!

In a larger sense, the fact that they can get away with this shows how high the markups are across the board in this industry.


I've seen it reported that liability insurance alone is at least 30k a year to do E bike biz in the US.
You think marketing campaigns are cheap?
You think product websites pay for themselves?
What about those pesky warranty claims?
Oh, the other employees want to be paid too?

You really don't know anything about the the real costs of doing business here.
 

grench

Well-Known Member
@stevy
Cheap generic bike? What does your bike do the Opti won't? How much does yours cost? Top speed? Weight limit? Does yours come with a 90 love it or return it option? Is yours puddle proof? Lol take a happy pill. Let's go for a ride and see how the Opti measures up to your Princess of bikes.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Just discussing marketing. Not looking for a battle. :)

Look up "confirmation bias" for why I know I can't win a debate here.

As for my bike, it is far from perfect. The retail price is insane, it comes with fragile tires, etc...

I mean no offense to current Allroad owners. By all accounts it looks like people are riding this bike and having fun!

My comments are only meant to be informative for people considering buying this product.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I think the best question is if the Pioneer Allroad gives good value to its cost compared to other $3k bikes? I have not done any in depth comparison, but I would guess the value is equal, if not higher than other 3k bikes.

Many of these Bosch Haibike system do have better components, but they have less power (350W vs 500W) and can cost 2x as much. All road has PAS and throttle, Haibike just PAS. Until you test both systems, hard to compare motor smoothness, response, drag,etc. I expect Court gives the edge to Bosch, but is 3-4k more a better value? Are the Opti components, like mechanical disk, that low of quality? I think they use less expensive components, but not cheap components. The Allroad seems more versatile with the 20+mph speed, but not as good on trails.
 

Reddy Kilowatt

Well-Known Member
Let's not all get our knickers in a twist here. My Allroad has been completely trouble-free, so I haven't had to test Optibike's customer service. That said, I strongly get the impression that Jim Turner of Optibike understands that companies exist to serve customers first, employees second, and capital thirdly. If you do the first two right, there's enough money left for a good return on investment for capital; If you don't there's nothing.
I voted with my wallet when I bought my Allroad, and I've never looked back. There are cheaper options. I know; I owned one but had to send it back because it couldn't climb the hills on my commute. Many people know the price of everything and the worth of nothing.
This is a tough climate to do business in. I get pushback from customers in my work (I fix Mac computers). To wit: waaah! Why do I have to pay? (Um because I really love those paychecks I get every two weeks; hows about you?)
Allen
 

Greg A

Member
I'll continue to patiently wait for my Optibike Pioneer Allroad until it arrives in July.
I will not let anyone here rain on my parade - I still feel like a kid at Christmastime (I'm 61).

And, as a small business owner here in the US (almost a quarter of a century, now) I know something about what it costs to successfully stay in business, and what costs may be involved that only a seasoned business owner knows.

We live in a wallyworld/amazon/ebay culture now - so sad (at least to me) to see this, and witness that mentality in this thread....

Keep on Riding and Smiling All,
Greg
 

J.R.

Well-Known Member
I'll continue to patiently wait for my Optibike Pioneer Allroad until it arrives in July.
I will not let anyone here rain on my parade - I still feel like a kid at Christmastime (I'm 61).

And, as a small business owner here in the US (almost a quarter of a century, now) I know something about what it costs to successfully stay in business, and what costs may be involved that only a seasoned business owner knows.

We live in a wallyworld/amazon/ebay culture now - so sad (at least to me) to see this, and witness that mentality in this thread....

Keep on Riding and Smiling All,
Greg
Good for you, Greg!!! Hang in there and stick to your guns!:)
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I'll continue to patiently wait for my Optibike Pioneer Allroad until it arrives in July.
I will not let anyone here rain on my parade - I still feel like a kid at Christmastime (I'm 61).

And, as a small business owner here in the US (almost a quarter of a century, now) I know something about what it costs to successfully stay in business, and what costs may be involved that only a seasoned business owner knows.

We live in a wallyworld/amazon/ebay culture now - so sad (at least to me) to see this, and witness that mentality in this thread....

Keep on Riding and Smiling All,
Greg
Greg,
Keep the enthusiasm and small company mentality. Big Brash Brother wants to put your Shrinking Sovereign Wallet, in the Big Box Bank, and make you be normalized onto a Benign Boring Bike.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Greg,
Keep the enthusiasm and small company mentality. Big Brash Brother wants to put your Shrinking Sovereign Wallet, in the Big Box Bank, and make you be normalized onto a Benign Boring Bike.
Nice alliteration! Here's one back...

"why would we work?"
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Those who sell products for too much go away ...
Agreed. So do those who make junk and sold as reliable products. Buy a $1000 ebike and expect a $1000 product.

I bought a $1000 road bike with performance components. I added a 500W Falco motor to get a 40lbs speed commuting ebike w/ pas and throttle. Total cost before accessories like a CA, rack, etc., $2650. On paper, this would be a fantastic value if offered by an OEM. In practice, the bike can't handle the weight and speed of 175lbs + motor/battery/gear over 3500 miles in two years without active wear and repairs. My point is that reliable, safe and performing ebikes cost more than people expect, and a $3k ebike that is designed and built to last 4-5 years is not overpriced IMO.